Technical A Kid's First Project: 1957 Fairlane 500 Town Victoria.

I say keep investigating like you have been. We should be encouraging Cat to investigate instead of saying no way. Still all in all a 390 is a good engine

 

actually sat down and asked "what is this to the owner"

he maintained that it was a 428 and they must have swapped covers around while the engines were out, it should have a mild cam and ported c6 heads with a factory pi intake. the carburetor on it was a 750 double pumper) that was "too much" for the converter setup. the truck was parked in 2012when gas was super expensive, on top of the fact that the truck wasn't running the best at the time, he parked it in a barn, and time got away from him. apparently the "tool box" in the bed is'nt just a tool box, it has a 50 gallon tank underneath the tool box. it was meant for long hauling.

the truck is a factory ac truck, its missing the 3 belt crank pulley and two belt water pump pulley, which would be needed for the truck to use the ac compressor (the 390 at the junkyard has all of these, i will likely swap that 390 into this truck.)

i'll see what more i can learn, but so far im pretty close to saying the gamble is close, im going to ask to pull a spark plug and use a dowel/long pick to measure the stroke, should be about 4 1/8th for a 428.

engine is super high comp, kinda hard to turn.

 

im going back this evening, going to take a look at it again. going to try the dowel method alongside locating the casting date. if its 1967 it should be the final piece of supporting evidence.

 

It's final exam time! Study up on everything you can to make sure this isn't going to be a mess.
Since @Crazy Steve knows this stuff and has said casting numbers are unreliable in ID'ing, try to make sure you can at least say what it's NOT.
A wooden dowel is a bad idea. The plug hole is not parallel with the bore. You will not get accurate info and it can break off.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1231280-how-to-measure-stroke-on-an-fe-engine.html

 

im going to use a piece of wire coat hanger i have laying around with a sharpie, measure between them, should be semi accurate.

all im trying to do is verify its not a 1975 block, if its a 1974 or 1975 block for the 1975 model year, its the original engine and everything surrounding it is likely bullshit.

the stroke measuring is just bonus material.

 

So forgive but what is the big deal about a 428 as opposed to a cheap readily available 460?

 

428 is the biggest of the FE series engines which fit the HAMB guidelines. The FEs have quite the racing history too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_FE_engine
The 460 is too late to fit the HAMB era and doesn't look vintage. It is bigger, too. Not sure if swapping it is as easy and as well documented.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_385_engine

I'd equate it to finding a 327 small journal vette motor to a vortec.
Or in Dodge terms, a 426 Stage III to a 5.7.
Those are both much newer, but you get the idea.

 

I don’t know the stroke difference between a 428 and a 390, but my buddy bought an early 70’s Ford PU, it came originally with a 360. The owner told him it was a 390 he had put in.
Ya, right.
But he used a dowel of some sort through a plug hole. He didn’t get an exact stroke, but was able to tell it had more stroke than a 360.
So if there’s a discernible difference between a 390 and 428, you should be able to tell it has more stroke than a 390, if it’s a 428.

 

why not a modular, godzilla or LS? the 385 exists after the hamb era, and most importantly doesn't bolt in without serious crossmember modification.

im going to dress down this engine to look early 60s, sure the block would be a 67 but i can only era correct larp to a point for rarities sake.

itll look like this when im done.
pic via @Jeff Norwell

also side note: if this is what it is, that accel distributor is leaaaving. im sticking a mallory dual point in it.

why? cus ive wanted the idea of one thats the only reason.

 

390 is roughly 3 3/4 and 428 is 4 1/8. a 3/8 inch is a MILE in engine terms.

 

Once again clearly you have it all figured out. I'm back to good luck.

 

im not intending to be rude at all, if youre taking it that way, i do enjoy the criticism and it allows me to take a step back and evaluate "what am i missing"?

i enjoy your input and would love if you would continue, if not thats okay.

 

May be some help here:
https://www.fordfe.com/

 

already been reading some on there, thats where i found the dowel measuring trick.

 

The difference in stroke is only .020" between the 390/406/427 at 3.78" and the 428 at 3.98". Use a piece of coathanger, it's small enough to get a reasonably accurate measurement. Make sure you hold the wire as parallel to the cylinder bore as possible. Anything under 4", it's not a 428...

Edit... Missed the decimal point, should be .2"!

Measure at BDC first, then turn the crank 180 degrees and measure TDC. Good luck!

 

Y-blocks forever baby
better the devil you know then the one you don’t

 

guy has officially stopped responding entirely. hasnt responded when i asked about when we can get the title notorized and transferred so i can pay him.

let alone going and checking the stroke.

i hate when sellers get flakey. makes me think of the corvair spyder convertable parts car, was on my way to get it when the douche sold it. to some other guy.

 

Well, sometime's those responses make it the tie breaker. grab the junkyard 390, ream the guide with the sticking valve, and continue on. Well, not quite that simple, but you get my drift.

 

I think it’s time for a song……
Pie !!!!……..
In …….
the..
Skyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!….
428s and 390s live therrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre!!!!!
Ooooooooh
406s and 427s Live therrrrrrrrrrrrrrre!
I don’t care about what’s free but I’d be happy with a 352 HP…..
It lives there…….
Pie!!!!!!!!!
Innnnnn
the
Skyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Ohhhhh
Cross bolt mains and Police Interceptors live therrrrrrre.
Ohhhhhhhhhh
410s and 391s live therrrrrrrrrre
You can’t depend on what they sayyyyyyyyyyyy!
You’ll only know when it’s in yo-drive wayyyy.
Cause they live therrrrrrrrre.
Pie
Innnnnnnn
Theeeeee
Skyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!

 

$2K will get you a 445" stroker kit for that 390...

 

I had that happen once, I was going to pick up a 350, guy wanted 25 bucks for it but backed out at the last second.

 

guy was a flake before i went to see it. hes a modern off roader/ jeep person. he knows nothing about this.

if he was the guy he bought it off of, of whom i still have consistent contact with asking questions, id probably own it by now!

 

he said its build date is 7d22.

no pics, but thats what he said it was.

april 22 1967.. sound right?

the original owner also responded again, he said its a 428 bored 60 over with a mild cam, higher stall converter, and shift kit. im leaning towards bullshit but if i take the gamble, a 60 over 428 is... a lot more cubes.

but more importantly, it cannot be bored any further, so the block would be junk if the bores are pitted

 

Ability to spin it over and boroscope it at least before money changes hands or it's scrap value.
Here that's ~200 bucks. They require a title here, too.
https://upickitaz.com/sell-your-scrap-metal/
Is it worth more? Maybe to the right person, but to you it's all about having a good engine.

 

A few things. You mentioned you needed a truck, 1500 for that year of a complete pu is a decent price, even without an engine.
The days of 250$ complete trucks are long gone.
Now if the engine turns over, you have a shot.
You’re not building a marathon race engine. Adding some oil every 500 miles is a cheaper than a rebuild

You can do a backyard refurb on it, bottle brush hone the cylinders, check bearings, hand polish if needed, lap in valves, new rings, etc, and make it run.

I’m pretty sure you mentioned earlier the current owner has a title for it now, that’s a plus.
Is it a get and go? Probably not, more likely a project, but you’re young, don’t need to get in a hurry…yet!

 

The more info coming to light about this motor, the less desirable it becomes....

At .060" over, it past being done IMO; I'd walk away at this point. When Ford started adopting thinwall casting starting in '60 (originally for the 140 and 170 Falcon sixes), the maximum recommended overbore was .030" over, with .040" over 'allowable' for non-performance use. The drag racers bored the 428 to .060 over, but also filled the water jackets in the block to reinforce the bores to prevent block failures. Not something you want to do for a street motor. Supposedly the FE made the transition to thinwall in '63, which makes sense as that's when all those minor improvements/detail differences appeared.

At $750 if it didn't have that .060 overbore it would have been a decent deal IMO. But at $1500, no way. For $500 more that will get you a 4.25" stroker kit, only needing crank/rod bearings for a complete lower end/pistons. A good core 360/390 block will give you 445 inches and gobs of torque. Also keep in mind that the 428 motors all had compression ratios of 10:1 or more which makes them pretty iffy about running on today's pump gas (that overbore will raise it even higher). A set of pistons to drop the ratio down will cost you $400 or more. Contact this guy for your options.... Parts FE spoken there.

A bit of history may be useful. The 428 came about because by '65, the Thunderbird had gotten heavier and the 390 wasn't cutting it anymore. Ford needed something with more grunt. The race-bred 427 was out, and the MEL motor wouldn't fit in the car. So they resurrected the 406 bore size and added .2" more stroke... the 428 arrived. Initially only offered in the T-bird, by mid-year it showed up in the full-size Fords as a less-raucous alternative to the 427. By swapping in the cam/heads off the 390GT along with a MR aluminum intake, the PI was born. The '66 version had solid lifters, but those were gone in '67 due to the higher maintenance. The PI disappeared for '68 because of the issues with the intake. Meanwhile, Bob Tasca was unhappy with Ford due to the poor availability of the 427 as it was only available in the Fairlane 500 (not the GT) and not at all in the Mustang. Keep in mind most dealers didn't like the 427 as it wasn't popular with most buyers due to its poor street manners and the dealers didn't like the warranty issues. It was also expensive to build. So he proceeded to build his version of a 428, also by raiding the parts bin. But he used a bit different combination in a '67 Mustang, with the primary difference being 427 heads. The heads woke the motor right up to say the least. Meanwhile, Ford was working on a similar engine, and Tasca drove his to Detroit for a drag showdown with the factory effort. But Ford pulled a fast one; rather than a 428, they dropped the 428 crank into a 427 block for 447 inches, beating Tasca's car easily (as a side note, I owned a '67 Cougar in the early '70s with that combo. You could melt the tires at will. It was a real monster). But the 427 block was too hard to produce, so the final version was the 428. Introduced mid-year in '68, it didn't get much attention initially as Ford's 'official' HP rating of 335 HP (5 HP less than the milder Galaxie version) wasn't impressive. The motor produced roughly 100 HP more in reality and once word got out, sales took off in '69.

Ford didn't actually build all that many 428s. It only lasted two years in the T--bird, replaced by the 429 in '68. It was gone in the full size the next year, again replaced by the 429. '69-70 was its swan song; offered only in the Fairlane/Torino/Mustang in '69, by '70 the Mustang was the last of them. Ford also offered 'vanilla' 428s in the '69-70 pickups, probably to dispose of remaining inventory. The 428 trucks are rare, and only offered in 2WD with a C6.

Ford also had a habit of disposing of discontinued motors at fire-sale prices. In the early 70s you could buy a 427 SOHC new in the crate for $2200 (each one cost Ford about $10K to build). How about a complete Boss 302 for $900? When Ford made the transition from the 5-bolt small blocks to the 6-bolt, they gave away all remaining 5-bolt 289s to high schools and tech schools. And the 428? As the CJ motors were still needed for possible warranty replacements, how about a 'regular' 428 shortblock for $600? More than a few of these ended up in trucks, as it was a cheap replacement for a worn-out 390. That may be what you're looking at in the truck you're after.

Anyway, lots of food for thought.

 

You're right, the dentside Ford trucks are starting to be worth money. But they also rust out badly and all that aluminum trim isn't cheap to replace, not to mention all the plastic bits they have.

And yes, he could do a cheapy backyard 'rebuild' but I doubt it will yield a performance motor. The compression ratio will be a real issue and when you retard the timing enough so it won't knock on current pump gas, it won't run all that well. That may be why it ended up where it is.

 

WOW!!! Been a Ford guy all my life, but my "Ford knowledge" falls miserably short compared to @Crazy Steve . Nicely explained Steve.

 

Range of some insightful opinions in an old thread.

HAS ANY BODY DONE IT? SBC IN 1957 FAIRLANE?
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/has-any-body-doen-it-sbc-in-1957-fairlane.420539/page-6

...Ya just don't do that.

...nein, das ist nicht richtig!

...it's quite easy with a rear sump pan >>> it's just something I don't agree with.

...Well is the sbc in the car? >>> hope it runs good as most sbc do and he is enjoying the shit out of the car and laughing at cry babies and having a good time.

...and if some one complains ill tell them give me a running 312 y block and will be happy to drop it in, and how many other fords do we see at shows with a sbc?

...if your a rodder make a cool car and make it go... I really don't care where you got your parts.

...I have built a '59 Ford with a hot 355 Chevy >>> HP is over 400 >>> I haven't broken anything so far >>> It surprises a lot of people and I've beat some what were supposedly fast cars street racing. So screw everyone, build what you like.

...Damn ,it works. >>> why put the turd in the punch bowl? >>> find a Chebbie to put it in >>> we all know everyone has one and they all stink.

...Insightful

 

Steve is right! I built a 428 for a F250 back in the 70's, I was constantly fighting detonation, and that was when gas was higher octane than today.