Hot Rods New guy; Model A Drop Axle and Mechanical Brakes

Note; Thread started as a Wishbone question but morphed to Drop Axle and Mechanical Brakes.

Although at 73, I'm definitely not a new guy but I am at last building a "Banger". I've been studying front suspensions and I see some split the wishbone and some do not.
I always assumed splitting was to give room for a larger engine and/or when going super low.
I'm keeping the 4 cylinder and looking at a 4" drop so I don't think I will need the room.
Is there any other advantage to splitting the wishbones?
Thanks,
robj

 

Robj,
If everything clears, you’re good to go not splitting. Actually according to V. Tardel, you’re better off not splitting. His thought was that Henry knew what he was doing.

 

It is usually a trade off, isn't it? Wishbones are split for clearance reasons when making certain modifications, like different engines/trans/drivelines and lowering with an OEM axle. But it does introduce some level of bind into the system.
Virtually perfect articulation if left unsplit.
Smart guy that Henry Ford fellow....... (or at least the people he had working for him).

 

DITTO

 

The first of what I'm sure is to be many questions answered.
Thanks so much.
robj

 

If you run headers on the banger , you may need to split them, and if you use some of the aftermarket dropped axles, you will need to narrow it to if the perch pin centers (cut it 1/2 way thru at the welds at the rear of the wishbones , line it up with the axle and rewelded it)

later kb

 

I'm probably going with a cast iron single outlet header that exits in more or less the stock location.

Right now I'm researching axles, [4" drop] and reverse eye springs. I'm thinking about keeping the mechanical brakes and upgrading mine to cast drums and flat head Ted's floater kit.
To be honest my head is swimming with how to achieve this...

 

Keeping mechanical brakes with that drop is going to be difficult. There are other options using a mix early ford parts that will give you what you want. Also if you dont need to split the wishbone then dont do it. You are creating more issues you will need to resolve. Keep it simple.

This may help.. https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/lowered-a-with-stock-brakes.971652/#post-10946029

 

In the early days of hot rodding, splitting the wishbone was a necessity. When you changed out the engine and trans with something different, the ball socket where the wishbone mounted went away. Your only choice was to alter the front suspension. Splitting the bones was one of them.

 

Thanks Gizmo.. That's very helpful. [still learning my way around HAMB]

My goal is a stance similar to what's pictured above. Any idea what the front and rear drop on this could be?
It was on BAT a few years ago. I tried to find the eBay listing where it eventually sold but couldn't find it. I was hoping that would have some additional information.
Thanks,
robj

 

Here's my 4" dropped A Axle with A spindles and juice brakes. Take close notice to what I did for the tierod and draglink program. Mega simple and worked just like a stock Model A. Up-grades are not really necessary when doing Old School treatments.

 

Side shot with full fenders.

 

First off, feel free to speak to me like I'm a 5 y.o. dumbass, as that's what I'm feeling like.

I'm currently down to the frame, filling un-needed holes, repairing a few cracks at bolt holes and planning a more major crack repair at one of the rear motor mounts that I believe "Barn Yard Billy" fixed previously
. I did make a spreader bar that turned out well so there's one tiny thing.

While doing this I'm also thinking ahead to the drop axle with mechanical brakes. I've been looking over a number of threads and to be honest my head is swimming with 32-34 axles, this year and that, spindles, perches and on and on.
Then I saw a brief post on one of the threads where someone still needed to bend their steering arms. A photo from "Elrod" showed his drop set up with mech. brakes where no steering arm bending was necessary.
He said this was because he got a dropped and stretched Model A axle from "Joes Speed Shop" and with that, the steering arms did not need bending.

This started me thinking. If I went with the same axle [Model A] , and planned on fabricating an extension for the brake actuator, used a Model A spring, is there a reason I couldn't use Model A spindles, perch pins, shackles, king pins, etc...?
I mean do folks do all this mixing and matching as they want to use a '32 axle?

I would like to get this figured out as one of the venders has new brake drums going at a discount.
rob j.

 

Maybe consider '32-'34 spindles & brakes. Better bigger brakes and you can use regular tie rod ends instead of dealing with oblong worn balls on the original arms.

Not a big deal to set up mechanical brakes on a dropped axle. Picture has a '32-'34 perch bolt; but an extension bolted on an A perch bolt works the same.

 

Rich, great photo! Thanks.
So, at 73 I mostly drive almost like your grandmother, "most" of the time. And being a life long vintage M.C. rider has given me the defensive driving skills to maybe equal out my age...
I guess I'm wondering how much better 12" compared to 11" would be with essentially the same design brakes.

Especially when adding up the cost of new/used spindles, drums, backing plates, new shoes, etc... When I have most of that just sitting here. Not to mention the aggravation of buying used stuff that's someone's cast-offs and not serviceable. That gets old quick.

I mean I've ridden in stock Model A's with properly set up cast drums and they seem to stop pretty good, like put your face toward the dash good. [ do have to rebuild my mechanicals to achieve that, rods, clevis's, new linings, etc...] And a Flat Head Ted floater kit for sure.
So, if stopping better than that is not a big concern, can all Model A parts be used?

 

This is dropped and stretched axle. Don't try to run mechanical brakes and original shocks with a dropped axle. The dropping process moves the king pin and creates all sorts of headaches with the mechanical brakes.

Here's one from left field for you.

Fit a flattened and reversed eye front spring and a 33-36 axle.

Maybe look at splicing in the centre section of a reproduction front cross member into the area that holds the spring. This will lower the car even more, and allow you to use the other original suspension components.
A pair of 32-34 spindles and perch bolts will help too.

Just my 2c worth

 

Rob, To answer your basic question, No you do not need to replace everything to latter version.

Once again, Everything here is Model A except the brakes. I could have stayed Mechanical but my choice was Hyd. I even mounted the 39-48 Master cyl and without welding anything to the Brake pedal had brakes. None of that part was necessary.

 

"This is dropped and stretched axle. Don't try to run mechanical brakes and original shocks with a dropped axle. The dropping process moves the king pin and creates all sorts of headaches with the mechanical brakes. "

Interesting some say mechanical brakes won't work and others [that have done it], say no big deal.
It certainly appears it is possible to do.
My car came without the lever shocks and they are so expensive, I'm figuring on tube shocks.

As you may be able to see, my crossmember has had some reinforcement added. I looked at raising the center section as I would like to get rid of the unsightly mod to the center.
When I was still planning to restore I bought a pricy "Brassworks" radiator. I haven't checked for sure yet but it looks like I would only be able to raise the center of the crossmember about 1/2 to 3/4" due to the shape of the bottom of the radiator.
They sell the same radiator that's flat across the bottom and that would have given me 1 to 1.25 " but oh well. As I was going to "repair the repair" I'll probably do that anyway, maybe reducing the need for a reverse eye spring. Or maybe I do both.

Wizzard, a quick question. What is the drop on the axle you have? Is it dropped and stretched? And the spring, Looks to be reverse eye, are any leaves removed? Do you recall how many?
And lastly, do you know how much that dropped your frame from the stock height?

Thanks,
robj

 

Sure; nothing wrong with good Model A stuff; guess I thought since you mentioned new cast drums and the floater kit that you were going thru typical worn out brakes and front end stuff.

Always seemed to me if you had to rebuild stuff, it is a good idea to upgrade to better stuff at the same time.

And @Stovebolt; good to learn that it is not at all possible to mix mechanical brakes with a dropped axle.

 

Rich,
Looks like the 32-34 perch bolt is much taller than the Model A. Do you have a Model A axle? Would the 32-34 perch bolt work with the Model A axle and wishbone?
"Upgrade to the later stuff"...
This is where my head starts to spin. I guess if going to 32-34 12" brakes and spindles, wouldn't it be best to get a 32 axle? [dropped and stretched].
Then I'm back to where Elrod said he used a Model A axle and the steering arms did not need to be bent.
And again, I'm adding the cost of shoes, and backing plates [and hubs?] which I'm guessing I would need to find used.
I've read a number of places where the '30 and '32-34 brakes are pretty much the same design, that is non-self energizing, [as are the early juice brakes] so is going from 11" to 12" of the same design that much improvement?
robj

 

how many miles can you run the header before you have to split the wish bone???

 

Model A perch bolts work; just need a longer intermediate extension. Model A wishbone has a yoke opening of 2-1/4" and will fit the 2" boss on '32-'36 axles with a shim spacer.

A '32 axle is several times the money of a '33-'36. Many people think it is more desirable; but in my opinion a Model A or '33-'36 dropped axle looks better

'32 brakes will fit your Model A spindles which also fit any Ford axle.

If the balls on your arms are good and your tie rod & drag link are good, no reason not to use them.

The A steering arms can be heated and twisted 180 to better align the drag link and relocate the tie rod for clearance.

Again; I just mentioned the other stuff as having taken more Ford front ends apart than I can count when we were dropping axles; I'm used to most everything being worn out on Model A front ends.

 

Interesting thing about the HAMB or any online chat board. Ask 1 question about anything and you'll get a different swore to it answer from countless numbers of Key Bord Experts. You're the only one that can decide what answer is going to work for you.
That is a 4" dropped axle and it is not stretched. You can tell that by the drag link position to the spring perch. It is still running the Model A kingpins and the only reason it doesn't have Model A brakes was the fact what I had in parts was totally used up and I had a very serviceable full set of juice brakes laying around. The spring is not a reverse eye and is a full set of leaves in the spring. So, a totally stock front spring on a 4" dropped axle dropped the frame height 4".

 

As I stated when I first posted this photo. Look closely.

I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. program when building for myself.

 

"This is dropped and stretched axle. Don't try to run mechanical brakes and original shocks with a dropped axle. The dropping process moves the king pin and creates all sorts of headaches with the mechanical brakes."

Maybe Stovebolt was saying don't try to use mechanical brakes on a dropped axle that's not also stretched?
I remember reading why the axle needs to be dropped and stretched but I can't remember now. Maybe it was to be able to use mechanical brakes?
robj

 

Rich,
With what you are saying, is there any reason not to use a Model A axle? You mention you think it looks better, and the wishbone would fit without a spacer.
I do like the look of the 32-34 perch better as opposed to the Model A as the extension can be much shorter and looks more "factory'. I think for that alone it would be worth the cost of replacing. I think I read to use Model A shackles with that?
When it was still together the was no play at all in the steering, less than 1/4 inch at the wheel and in fact no kingpin play either so with 88K miles I have to believe someone was in there. I'm also assuming the balls are good but have not looked at them.

Elrod had mentioned he used the Model A axle and doing so let him use the steering arms in a stock configuration without bending. If that's accurate it seems to be another reason to use a dropped and stretched Model A axle.

And before I forget, thanks to everyone for taking the time to comment.
robj
P.S. Is there a way to change the title of a thread? This sort of changed directions and there's a lot of good information about retaining mechanical brakes. Someone searching that topic may miss it.

 

@tricyclerob
Top of your first post right side click "Thread tools" drop down menu has "edit title".

 

Having made that statement above,I'll now contradict myself, and hopefully clarify myself a little.

Yes, you can run mechanical brakes on a dropped axle. The photos above proves it.
This is not my coupe, I'm posting the photos as reference.

Note, the need to swap out to tube shocks if the axle is not stretched, as the brake mechanism can interfere with the original lever action shockers. This is because the brake actuators move inboard, due to the narrowing of the axle between the king pin and the perch bolt through the dropping process.

If your going to run original shockers, grab a pair of Shortened dog bones, to help maintain the original arc of travel of the shock arm and moves the shock arm down relative to where the brake mechanism will sit once a droppedaxle is used. This relates more to the use of a lowered spring.
I hope I'm making myself a little clearer

This is the current setup in my 28 coupe. 33-34 axle, spindles, perch bolts and brakes together with Model A brake actuators and king pins.
If you do go later brakes, you must use the actuating rod that goes through the centre of the king pin that suits the brakes your using.
Also, use the king pin and actuating rod that is original to the car, not the brakes, as each change of model (Model A, 32, 33-34, 35-36, 37, and 38) all differ in the angle where the actuating mechanism sits on the king pin, and where they mount to the perch bolt.
You might want to check out Maine-A's videos on YouTube, where he explains early Ford brakes.

 

Here's another example.

It's a local car, and it's right hand drive, but it illustrates what I'm referring to above

 

Here's mine: 32' axle with 32' spindles and spring perches,



Model A actuators, Ford Model A brakes with cast drums.
Regards, Harald