Hello, Im finishing up a blow through 351W swap in my 62 Flareside and ordered a 11” 351W/302 clutch kit for a V8 pattern 3 speed I found. However, I found the clutch Splines were about 4 hundredths too shallow and the pilot bearing inner diameter was too large. My transmission tag has the code HEG AF 016513, the main case code is C5AR7006 C, and the tail case code is C5FR-7AC4C-A CAL-1 does anybody know what this transmission might have come from? From the limited information on the internet it seems like a FE Galaxie. I just want some help or conformation before I start randomly buying clutches and bearings/bushings that I hope work. thank you, Duke
Might check over on the Ford truck site. I thought the short tail stock was used primarily on Ford trucks although some of the HEG's were behind the 390 in the 60's.
The HEG series were used in FE powered Galaxies and Fairlanes /Mustangs, with a shorter 1-3/8" diameter input shaft. Because of the tailshaft shifter mounting bosses, thinking Mustang. @Crazy Steve may offer some insight, but I am thinking you are going to have to change the input shaft to a small block one with the smaller 1-1/16" diameter and like clutch disc.
Ah so it is FE, thank you. Wouldn’t I be able to use a FE 11” clutch disk with a 302 11” pressure plate and just run a turned down bronze bushing; Or is there a difference in clutch thicknesses?
You may have a mish-mash of parts.... I'll make a few comments on the trans. The larger input shaft was pretty much restricted to FEs and some other HiPo applications but may have been used in trucks. You do need to check the length as there's two. The FE used a 1/2" shorter input (6" total, measured from the trans case), with all the difference in the pilot bearing shaft. When used behind a small block, this shaft doesn't fully engage the bushing leading to quick failure. The fix is a steel ball bearing in place of the bronze bushing, commonly available. As to 'what' transmission you have, I'd take the casting/tag numbers with a grain of salt. These are now anywhere from 30 to 50 years old, and may not represent what's actually there if the trans has been rebuilt from more than one trans. Another anomaly is the tailshaft casting number. The third letter 'F' codes out as 'foreign/ trans am'. As I'm reasonably sure that 3-speeds weren't used in trans am racing, who knows what the original application was. Ford did sell these transmissions to other manufacturers at various times. If you have an odd-ball input, this may be why. To the best of my knowledge, the pilot bearing shaft diameter was the same for all Ford cars/light trucks at .665" give-or-take a few thousandths. Same thing goes for the clutch. 11" clutches are rarities in most Fords. In most p***enger cars they won't clear the bellhousing, even on the FEs. IIRC, Ford cast a special cast-iron bell for the small blocks to use a 11" clutch but this was a truck-only part. Verify the input shaft diameter (both at the splines and pilot), length, and number of splines, then I'd invest a phone call to a clutch manufacturer to see if you can make it work. I wouldn't count on a parts house coming up with what you may need. Hope this helps....
Thanks so much Steve this helps a lot! I do have the special 11” iron bell housing, but I’ll measure the shaft length and see if I can find a bearing that sticks out enough to make up the difference if there is one. If that’s not feasible, I’ll try swapping out the input shafts for a small block one. Also, I’ll give a call to a clutch manufacturer to see if they offer a FE clutch with the right dimensions; or go to the junk yard and take a look at different clutches that may work. Again, I appreciate your time.
It seems like I could get the top shaft to work. Starting from the mating surface to the end of the top shaft it’s closer to 7”. And using a stick about the same length as the shaft I could get the end fully into the 351W needle pilot bearing that’s currently in there. so I suppose I’ll look for a clutch and a pilot bearing alternative for the smaller diameter shaft end.
With the pilot diameter of your transmission being .590 (15mm), and the output shaft having the "F" letter in it, I'm thinking this transmission is not a Ford car or truck transmission. Didn't Ford provide these transmissions to GM for a little while in the '60s for low production three speed cars? Could it be one of those? As for fitting an 11 inch clutch, that's what I have in my early Fairlane, with the 1965 car aluminum small block bellhousing. So that definitely will work with the right parts.
^^^^ I have to agree with your pics that this looks like a mish-mash of parts. I have a a small block one in storage that I will get out and make some dimension checks.
I have a Ford top loader 3 speed in my car that came out of a 68 Oldsmobile. It has RAT code which was a heavy duty version of the 3.03. It has GM input shaft and GM throw out bearing dimensions.
Dimensions- 10 spline input shaft measures 1.059" diameter, 7" from case to end, and 1.250" shaft length for pilot. With your 1.118" diameter, I am also on board with GM shaft. How many splines do you have?
I remember hearing about Ford producing transmissions for GM. I was looking at different clutch alignment tools and I found a series of GM ones being the most identical with this top shaft diameter, and it also had a similar pilot end diameter.
That’s interesting. I’m using a hydraulic throw out bearing that’s supposed to be designed for a 4 speed top loader by RAM clutches. I had to saw 2 inches or so off the base of it since it was a bit too long. Now it should have enough clearance…at least for a while hopefully.
Thanks for taking the time for the dimensions. It is a 10 spline. After doing some research I believe a GM clutch might fit this. I’m going to order a clutch alignment tool first to confirm the fitment.
I wonder if you can find a pilot bushing that’s correct for the shaft. If too large OD for your crank, have it turned down. If to small OD, have a sleeve made for the bushing to fit he crank. But I’m not a machinist, I just try to not chatter things in my lathe.
That’s a great idea! I was thinking about doing that, but after looking at some ball bearings I found a shielded KOYO that should work solid.
To bring closure and to help anyone else with a similar Ford transmission with this top shaft, I found out that a 11” GM 1 1/8” 10 spline clutch plate will fit the splines on the transmission and will fit into the 11” Ford pressure plate that is used on the engine’s recommended flywheel.
Thanks for the follow up with the disc part number. I think the pilot bearing you need is a 6202 (aka 202, etc.).
I decided to hunt around on the McLeod website and found what I think are the correct parts. Their pilot bushing is part 8-1380-1 Their pilot bearing is part 8-1380-7 Their clutch disc is part 260141 They actually list these parts by size and then give general application, so it is a pretty good site for reference.
Thank you for adding this information. I’ll definitely give a look into it when I buy my next clutch disk. Also, thanks for the pilot bearing number; as Crazy Steve recommended I found a ball bearing that was a perfect subs***ute for the pilot bearing. It was as easy as typing in the ID, OD, and depth (in mm) on the internet and there’s hundreds of them. It’ll be a lot easier to replace as well compared to the needle bearing before.
Sorry to comment on an old thread but I also have a 62 F100 flare side that had a 223 and manual 4 speed floor shift . I have been watching your posts because I plan on doing the same to mine . I saw that you swapped in a 351w and that you were able to use a manual transmission . I am interested in finding out how well the manual transmission has worked and held up for you ? What all did you end up doing to get it to work ? I have been told the manual wouldn’t fit and I couldn’t make it work so now I have to do it LOL. So I am trying to find others who have done it so I have an idea of the best way to start
The deal-breaker for you will probably be the transmission to bellhousing fit. Ford used two different trans-to-bell bolt patterns during the HAMB era. The '49-64 was the narrow pattern, then in '65 they went to the wide pattern which continued well into late '80s. If you look at post 8 above, the second picture, you'll see on the bellhousing face of the trans two holes drilled at each corner; this trans has both patterns. They also changed the diameter of the input bearing cover that indexes the trans to the bell, going from 4 11/16" to 4 13/16". To add yet another impediment to this working, Ford also changed the bell housing pattern on the small block in '65 (the infamous 5-bolt vs 6-bolt). The 62-64 SBF was 5-bolt, everything newer is 6-bolt. The original poster here has the 'correct' wide pattern case that fits the 6-bolt bells, his issue is an oddball input shaft. Your problem is likely you have a narrow pattern trans case and finding a 6-bolt bell with that pattern is nearly impossible or expensive. Ford did build some 6-bolt SB bells with both patterns but they were a service part for warranty reasons and rare as hens teeth. The also-rare 6-bolt cast iron truck SB bell may be able to be re-drilled to the narrow pattern but that needs to be checked. You need at least 1/2" thickness at the holes for adequate strength. The common aluminum bells cannot be re-drilled, too thin where the holes need to be. You'll also need an 'adaptor ring' to make up the difference in the bearing cover diameter, or a cover off a '65 or newer trans. There is an aftermarket solution, but it won't be cheap. Lakewood makes a ****tershield that will fit either pattern and comes with all necessary bits but its $750, although you may be able to chase down a used one for less. Quicktime also makes one, but that one is $1150. All this ***umes that you have the 'standard' narrow pattern. If you have some other pattern, all bets are off. In any case, trying to retain your OEM trans will be a tough sled... But if you ditch the '62 trans you have options... 1. Any '65 or newer truck granny low 4-speed will bolt up to the common aluminum SBF 6-bolt bell. When looking, keep in mind that the '65-72 longbed versions used a two-piece driveshaft with a short tailshaft, the shortbeds didn't. If you have a one-piece driveshaft, avoid the short ones. Look for one newer than '72, the two-piece driveshaft was gone. There is also the 4-speed OD trans (late '70s into the early 80s), another bolt-in, but these aren't recommended for heavy hauling or towing in OD. Stay far away from the aluminum-cased SROD version, you'll want the cast-iron version. Downside to these is a poor gear ratio spread (BIG jump from 1st to 2nd). 2. This option is a bit more complicated but offers better drivability. If you go newer yet, Ford offered a 5-speed manual behind the 351 in the F250 with both granny low and OD starting '88 through '96. The F250 version is considerably more heavy-duty than the F150 version, but has the same caveat of not using OD when loaded or towing. The complicated part is this trans uses a hydraulic throwout bearing so it's not a simple bolt-in. DO NOT try to use a T5 trans, it's simply too light-duty for truck use. Get everything you can off the donor. 3. And I'll throw this one in just because I don't know what parts you have laying around. If you use a FE instead of the 351, track down a '58-64 FE manual bell. Your existing trans should bolt up to this bell. These bells are getting a bit rare too but aren't expensive when you find them because they won't accept the newer transmissions. And because Ford started installing the FE in the trucks in '65, most pieces you'll need for the swap are easily found. Option one will likely be the cheapest, but personally I'd go for option 2. Hope this helps....
Thank you so much! This helps me a lot . The truck was a barn find that had spent over 20 years stored so it seems to be in better shape than most of the other “unrestored” options that I had seen . The seller had videos of it being driven within the last year but the mechanic he had taken it to was questionable . I do live in the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex so finding parts may be easier but the hard part seems to be finding someone who knows what to do with them . I have talked with a local shop that works on cl***ics near me and they were nice but they have a 3 year waiting list and I would rather not wait that long . I would like to keep it as original as possible at some point but I know if I don’t want to wait I may have to make sacrifices and do that later . I will definitely try your suggestions. Thanks again I will start looking to see what I can find .
The main issue with using a pro shop is they'll generally use parts that are commonly available which will usually translate as more $$$. Your vision and their vision may not coincide. Personally, I used to own a Ford truck with the granny low 4 speed and I absolutely hated that gearbox. It was reliable, but it felt like you were shifting a box of rocks. My current F250 4WD with the 351/5 speed, while not a performance trans by any means, is far better to live with and the 17+ MPG on the freeway is a bonus...
Very true ! I have not had the best luck with mechanics to begin with and it’s very frustrating . It took me over 10 years to get my 13 GT500 fixed , I had taken it to a lot of different independent mechanics , multiple ford service centers and even spoke with ford corporate more than once . I spent a lot of money paying “professionals” to fix it but they never figured it out . I ended up having to do it myself . I learned in the GT500 forums that the problem mine had was a known electrical issue that the 13/14 GT500 had. The frustrating part is just a little common sense ,a basic understanding of how electrical systems work , maybe a multimeter and the car would have been fixed not long after I got it. I pulled out and replaced lots and lots of wires but it is fixed. It’s kind of shocking that I am the one who finally ended up being the one who figured it out so I don’t have a lot of trust in mechanics now . This truck won’t be used as a racer anytime soon and most likely will not pull a trailer . Once I get it finished I will drive it and might use it to teach my daughter how to drive manual transmission . The 351 is a good engine and 17+ MPG would be nice for sure , it’s been a long time since I have seen that kind of gas mileage I kinda have a heavy foot haha
One bit of info to add to the extensive information by Crazy Steve. The C5TA truck bell housing pictured way back (as well as the D2TA version, I believe) has casting "lumps" inside that correspond to the 5 bolt, narrow trans pattern. I did drill and tap a C5TA bell housing for a narrow 5 bolt pattern many years ago, and the tapped holes went in the "lumps" perfectly and ended as blind holes.
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