Hot Rods From Troubleshooting Wiring to Ignition Hell

And ditch the box fan and have a garden hose with a spray attachment and use as needed.

 

I gutted that thermostat, re-installed it (true to form, one of the bolts wanted to cross thread but I said no, not today). Then I filled the system with water again, noticed that I'd failed to tighten down the clamp on the bypass hose so quickly stopped that leak. I started it up, dialed in the advance on the distributor, ran it for about 10 minutes watching the temperature gauge and noticed that it slowly climbed to around 195 degrees and stayed there. SUCCESS! Then I noticed a little smoke coming from the passenger side so went around there to see that the collector was glowing bright red and scorching a portion of body webbing that touched the header. I shut it down to addresss that.
Should the collectors be so hot as to be glowing bright red? Maybe running wayyyy too rich? When I shut it off, it backfires right as it comes to a stop. At least the radiator is doing its job, keeping the engine in an acceptable temperature range. I'll still need to fabricate a shroud. The valve covers are still seeping oil, so that's got to be addressed.

 

Hot exhaust can be caused by slow timing.

 

Also check to make sure you don’t have a vacuum leak. Running lean causes heat also.
Dan

 

Running rich causes exhaust header heat.

 

Will running rich cause the header to glow? The reason I say check for vacuum leaks is one time on engine start up I had manifolds glowing shortly into run, discovered a missing plug on the intake, plugged and then manifolds cooled off immediately.
I can understand why running way rich may cause fuel to burn in the header.
Dan

 

Here's what specs I have so far: Initial advance at idle about 10 to 12 degrees BTDC, dwell 24 degrees, temp running at around 2,000-2,500 rpm goes to 195 degrees, oil pressure 55 pounds. I don't have a working vacuum gauge so that's next on the shopping list. Carburetor screws at idle sound best (smoothest) at 1 full turn out. Still don't know why the tachometer isn't working, so I'll have to do a jumper wire from the negative side of the coil to the tachometer to see if it's a continuity issue.
Regarding the oil leak issue, the valve covers are stock Ford 351W and not warped as far as I could determine when I cleaned them up. I checked them with a straight edge. I did not use RTV or any other sealant, and since these are cork gaskets, they are saturated with oil, oozing out at the tabs that hold them in place in the stamped steel valve covers. Should I replace these gaskets with rubber, use a sealant on one side, both sides or not at all? What do you recommend? I've tightened down the machine screws as much as I feel comfortable. Should I ditch the stamped steel valve covers for a cast aluminum pair? I don't have a wild cam or radical rockers, just an Edelbrock 2182 "RV" type cam and roller rockers but not roller lifters. The heads are Edelbrock E-Street with 1.90 intakes.

 

The sheet metal covers should be fine, just make sure the flange isn't distorted around the bolt holes. If anything, having them very shallowly depressed when looking at the gasket side will help. I use Permatex red aviation sealer on the cover side to glue the gasket to the cover (paint both surfaces), then a small bead of silicone on the head side. I then torque the bolts to 100 inch-pounds in three increments starting at 50 inch-lbs, then 75, then 100. Let them sit for a while, then repeat final torque. Do this at least twice, as the gasket will continue to compress. I've never had a leak with this method with cork gaskets. DON'T use the aviation sealer on both sides as removing the cover later will be a******... AMHIK... LOL.

You should to the same thing on the oil pan to prevent leaks.

 

Have you retightened the valve covers and oil pan since hot then cold cycle?

 

Great investment for short money!

 

I've tightened them again but still have seepage. I'm going to go over them again tomorrow, after the engine has cooled down and after I've wiped down everything as much as possible. It's just a matter of making sure the lubricant stays inside the engine where it can do the most good. I don't much care for the smoke and smell of oil burning on red-hot headers, not to mention the fire hazard.

 

A red hot collector is either super lean or a misfire causing the mix to burn in the exhaust.
Over rich will stink, put out black smoke and be sluggish.

Check what your timing is at that 2200-2500 break in, it also might be low timing.

Was the other side also glowing? A single plane feeds all cylinders, a dual plane intake feeds the outer 2 on one bank and the inner 2 on the other bank.

Dwell is normally 28-30 degrees for a V8.
https://www.tpocr.com/ford1.html
Right firing order?
https://axiom-northwest.com/wp-content/images/351_windsor_firing_order_diagram_jrhg.jpg
Idle smooth?
At least 28-30 degrees timing at higher RPM?

Oil leaks, if no VC bolts are loose (just hand check first), take it back off and look things over. Make sure the drain back holes are clear. A piece of wire deeper than the head gasket and/or a flashlight.
I prefer to glue the gaskets to the cover and nothing between the gasket and the head rail. I don't do cheap gaskets.
You got this Murphy!

 

Both sides were glowing at higher rpm but not as hot toward idle. No black smoke, nor sluggish. The dwell is a concern. That's why a vacuum gauge will steer me in the right direction. Firing order is right and it idles smoothly. I've got to figure out why my tachometer isn't working. Then I can correlate the rpm with the timing.

 

I carefully tightened down the valve cover bolts this morning after letting the engine cool down overnight, wiped down the heads below the valve covers and around the headers, then started it up immediately and ran it for a few minutes or so to get enough heat in the engine for the oil to flow. I brought it down to as low an idle as I could, then the engine died. The good news: no evidence of oil leak from the valve covers. After I shut it off to run a jumper wire from the negative on the coil to the tachometer to check for continuity, it wouldn't start and wouldn't even turn over, like it was vapor locked up. I pulled the plugs - should have done it earlier but hindsight is 20/20 - and tried again. Same thing, The starter would move the crank about 10-20 degrees, maybe less, then fall back to where it was when I tried to start it. The battery was low so I've hooked it up to the charger and will wait for it to fully charge before trying to start it again.
Those plugs? Numbers 1, 4, 5 and 7 were soot covered, black as a coal mine at midnight. The rest not so bad, but it is obvious that it is running wayyyyy too rich. With the plugs out, it still wouldn't turn the engine over when I hit the starter. I'm going to pick up a new set of plugs (Champion 3018 in it now, probably going with Edelbrock's recommendation of Champion RC12YC).
One bit of good news. Using a jumper wire between the negative post on the coil and the tachometer showed that the tach was willing to work. I'll do a visual continuity check to see if there's an obvious break.
After the battery was fully charged and the plugs out, it did turn over the engine - sluggishly - but enough to tell me there's hope. I'll get the new plugs and see whether they make a difference. Damn! Just when I thought I was making progress.

 

Well, despite the frustration, you've learned that the red hot headers was probably rich mixture.
Are you using vacuum advance?
Is it hooked to manifold vacuum?
That would allow more ignition timing at idle and close down the idle mixture screws, to lean it up a bit at idle.

Beware, the battery may be a weak link.

Good luck. Yes, real progress can be frustratingly slow at times.

 

Respectfully, no. Unless there is air entering the exhaust, a rich mix will be cooler.
https://enginebasics.com/EFI Tuning/EGT vs AF Tuning.html
This disagrees with you. It also disagrees with me saying lean =hotter, but I think they are a bit off. Think about your typical oxy/act torch. A neutral flame is hot, but with more oxygen, it is hotter. With more acetylene it is cooler. Yes, this is not direct, since air is only 20% oxygen.
A lean mix is going to burn pistons and/or valves, a rich mix is 'safer' and will tend to leave deposits.

Murphy,
Disconnect the coil - jumper for now. It could be causing no spark. Turn the idle speed back up to normal, too.
Turn the engine over by hand with the plugs out, it should be fairly easy to do with no tight spots. The starter should be able to spin a plugless engine over easily! Either the battery is discharged, the starter is way too hot or there is an issue in the engine. This is****uming there have been no other issues before and no other changes.

 

Unlikely overly lean creates black spark plugs. So, something else is causing it?

 

Agreed, rich is sooty plugs.
But also weak spark or misfiring will do that. Both will also pump unburned air and fuel into the exhaust which is hot and getting other hot exhaust pulses. Afterburn, not rich burn. Too little timing will run hot too.
This whole thing has been a mess from the start. I'd like to help out by having a known good ignition and carb on hand and be able to lean over his shoulder, but failing that I can only offer basics. A minute or two with a learned ear, a hand twisting the dist and cupping over the carb would answer a lot of questions.

So far, it's been bad ignition, bad carb, bad thermostat. Now the engine isn't cranking over with the plugs out.

 

I agree with Rod I think an overly lean mixture combined with an afterburn caused the headers to glow. When I set up an engine for break in I try to set the carb/carbs slightly rich and make sure the ignition is advanced at or more than spec. Also use vacuum advance 30 or more degrees at break in RPM won’t hurt anything - no load - no detonation, using more ignition advance will usually let engine run cooler. With vacuum advance you might see 50 degrees advanced As I stated above the only time I’ve had an exhaust glowing during break in was when I didn’t plug a port on intake IIRC it was 1/4 or 3/8 npt - a big hole.
Osage try to roll engine by hand with all the plugs out. If you can’t Murphy struck big time. If you’re using points set you’re damper to about 10 degrees advanced then move your distributor until the points just start to open that should be very close to where you want to be. Check your carb and manifold to make sure that all vacuum sources are hooked up or plugged. I don’t remember what carb you have but you might want to check the float level.
Dan

 

Way rich or pulling oil from somewhere. 99% that the glowing headers are from lack of timing. Timing has instant affect on heat. From too many years tuning HD's if they are running hot adding fuel has little affect. Adding 4-5* advance has a big one. Another example on my own car is I dropped the distributor in a tooth retarded, shouldn't have even started. In less than 60 seconds headers were glowing orange. It cooked the ceramic coating off that fast.

 

Battery was low because I'd not tightened down the negative post and wasn't getting good contact to keep it charged, hence the sluggish start. I've got to replace the purple wire from the coil negative to the tachometer so that the tach will work and give me real information instead of guessing whether I'm at 2,000 or 3,000 rpm. I think the initial timing is correct at 10-12 degrees BTDC. I've checked for vacuum leaks and can't find any, but I'll keep looking. I also will switch the vacuum advance from one source to another just to see how it affects total advance at 2,500 rpm or so. Once I get the new plugs in, I'll get a better idea, but regardless, it is running much cooler with the gutted thermostat and slightly leaner idle screw setting. At the beginning of this process, my initial timing was all over the place in trying to confirm TDC. That likely supercharged the header heat. It could be a few days before I get back to this.

 

Upon rereading my post I need to clarify a couple of things.
1. Verify #1 piston TDC.
One thing I would add is to make sure your 0 degree or TDC on the harmonic damper and pointer is correct. This can be determined using a piston stop. Usually an extension of a spark plug when checking a fully****embled engine. Rotate full CW until rotation stops, mark the damper then rotate full CCW until stops. TDC is exactly between the two marks you made. It could be several degrees off the factory mark.
2. An article on finding TDC on the compression stroke https://classicautoadvisors.com/2024/07/01/finding-the-engines-top-dead-center/
3. After finding TDC on the compression stroke rotate the engine until the damper is at 10 degrees advanced, if the article is followed you should only have to rotate 10 degrees. Now the timing can be set by moving the distributor until the points begin to open. Lock the distributor down, the rotor should be pointed to the caps #1 post, if not the distributor may be a tooth off.
Dan