Projects 59A Starter Weak as Hell

Hello there, as this is my first post, I figure some context is required. Myself and my 2 friends are juniors in high school. My best friends grandfather had a habit of collecting and restoring model A's, so much that he convinced his grandfather on the other side of the family to buy one. He was never as interested and never finished the project.

This model A sat for about 8 years before we got it running this summer, albeit not great. Around the same time, a guy I work with was showing me his flathead v8. It was locked up after sitting for about 40 years, but we were convinced we could fix it. We took it home, and after doing research, decided that us 3 teenagers would build a 50's style AV8.

That was several months ago, and since then, we found out after blood, sweat, and tears, that our engine was truly a locked up boat anchor. Coincidentally, it was around this time I received word of another flathead we could get out hands on. Its a 1946 59A, sitting under an awning in someone's backyard. We picked it up for $200, as it spins over and had compression. It was just missing the starter and distributor. Since then we've torn the intake off to inspect the valvetrain, as that was our main issue with our previous engine, and it looked good. So good, in fact, that the engine already had adjustable lifters in it. After driving to a swap meet just outside Escondido, we picked up a crab distributor and 2 starters, untested.

We came back and the next day, tested the starters. We didnt have the bolts, so we had to get creative with some 5/16-18 threaded rod and a couple jam nuts. We tested both starters after struggling many times to get the brushes lined up, and they both spun over. One of them, however, didn't spin over while our "bolts" were in, it was shorting out. We removed the "bolts" and held it together while we tested it. It spun over quite well and we were pleased. As luck would have it, neither starter worked right when bolted to the engine. We would tap jumper wires from a 6v battery and they would spin maybe a tooth or two, and then stop. Over and over, that was it, occasionally cranking over a little bit, just incredibly slow. We even tried 12v but experienced little difference.

We are committed to this project, both financially and with time, and our current plan is to drop off the starters to be rebuilt locally and professionally on the day after thanksgiving. Any advice on our situation, or project at a whole, would be more than appreciated, and I'll answer as many questions as I can. Thank you very much, -Dillon

 

Welcome to the HAMB.
You should add your location, there may be someone close by that has the bolts or a good starter for you. Many love the idea of helping out younger HotRodders and may be able to lend a hand as well.

 

Thanks, I'll do that now. I'm in the Los Angeles area

 

Also, battery cable ends and connections clean and shiny? Both + and - 6 v requires thicker cables. But would be fine whe using a 12 volt battery. (Except for coil and lights, etc)

 

6 v or 8 v battary if you plain to keep
6 v & will probably need
1 awg or O/O awg even with 12 v B.
You want copper wire, Tin copper better.
& Heavy Duty top post cable clamps,
Not like one used on modern 12v
Found @ local auto store .
Stay away from aluminum wire
Or Tin aluminum

 

Back in the day, a lot of old Harley’s had a positive ground.

 

^^^^^^
Yes should be Positive ground

 

When I was getting my stuck flatty unstuck and then running 20 years ago, I used 12v on the starter and on the ignition circuit. Neg ground.

 

So you have two starters and neither one works well, right?
With all the expense you all will have with building a car, I would try to do what you can before taking one to be repaired. Do you have any old Motor's repair manuals? they have a section on starter motor repairs. Try following the tests they show in the book. Easy tests would be to test the armature for shorts to ground. The way to do that would be to get an OHM meter and check to see if there is an electrical connection between any of the copper contacts and the metal shaft. There should not be any connection, check each contact to ground. If the result is anything other than an open circuit, the armature is junk. You can also check the field windings close to the same way. The field windings are the windings of wire that are mounted inside the main frame of the starter. You will need to take it apart and make sure none of the wires that come from these windings go to ground. I don't remember if either of the wires go to a brush or to a ground terminal, I don't have a book or a starter in front of me right now. But just strip it down and make sure no field wires go to anything that connects to ground. Now use your OHM meter to check if there is any connection from any field wire to ground, there should not be any connection. If there is, it is shorted to ground. Now, if it p***es that test, test from one field lead to the other lead, it should be a connection, if no connection the field is "open" (the wire is broken somewhere).
Also make sure the copper contacts on the armature are clean, don't sand with corse sandpaper, clean up with very fine sandpaper. Also make sure the gaps between the contacts are not "bridged" over with dirt or copper dust. Check the brushes, make sure they move freely in their holders and make good contact with the armature. To ***emble you can install the brushes in the holders and move the coils spring off to one side so that it is not pushing down on the brush. After setting all the brushes up with the springs off to the side, ***emble the starter and through the "windows" in the housing, use a pick to reposition the springs to push on the brush. Also check that the shaft rotates freely when you put it together.
I know, you young guys are into the computer thing way more than books, so if you don't have any older auto repair manuals, see what you can find on the computer, you should also find info on using an OHM meter if that is needed.
Hopefully, you will find something wrong with either one and can use parts from the other.
Good luck and build something cool!

 

As your doing makeshift with threaded rod is the starter maybe sagging down and jamming on the ring gear ? At the end of the starter you need this little bracket which bolts from starter to oilpan bolt. Buy one or two new.

 

We were given a 12v alternator with an internal voltage regulator as well as some other stuff, so when the engine goes in the car, we will convert to 12v eventually. For now, we are just using a 6v battery and some jumper cables

 

We've checked clearences and confirmed that the rod is not contacting the ring gear or the flywheel. What exactly is that bracket for?

 

Our stucky flatty has a valve that poked through the lifter. One cylinder is completely covered in rust. There is no way we could've freed it up, it had to be rebuilt.

 

Thank you for all this information. So far on this entire project, we have spend a total of $470 on 2 complete 59a flatheads, a dual carb fenton intake, full set of juice brakes for a model a, distributors, starters, half a dozen carburetors, and countless other things that we recieved via the generosity of many people. We are at a point right now where we are pretty frustrated, as quite a few things as of the last couple days have not gone out way. We're ready to bit the bullet and just let a professional do it for us. I am a huge advocate for learning to do things yourself, especially since I work as a mechanic, but I'm too tired to spend another day in my friends garage rebuild a starter motor. We'll definitely be keeping this information though

 

Just saying I was lucky.

Dont get frustrated. Take a break. Watch some old hotrod movies or something.

 

Any movie recommendations?

 

A starter doesn't care if its pos or neg ground, but it must have a Good ground. Clean the probably rusty area of the oil pan where the starter bolts on, and that area of the starter. Put some real wire on instead of jumper cables, and that little bracket bolts up to the oil pan at the front for better support, and another ground

 

Also, if this is going in a model A you will probably want a 32-38 generator with the fan mounted on it.

There are ways of using the alternator, but this by far the easiest and most ***y looking.

 

Cut and paste of my post from another thread:

When I was a kid and messing with old used up junk, I would usually end up doing my $0 starter "rebuild".

1. take the solenoid off the starter and diss***emble. Turn the power stud 180 degrees to get a fresh surface for the contact with the washer. Diss***emble the washer/spring and turn the washer around for a fresh contact surface for the power stud, re***emble solenoid.

2. diss***emble the starter and wash the commutator and case with gasoline to get the carbon dust and DRIED grease out, especially from the commutator shaft and bushings. use a broken hacksaw blade to undercut the mica(s) between the coppers on the armature. Use a mill ******* file to carefully, manually round the armature and remove the low areas where the copper was worn down from the brushes (no lathe required for a serviceable result). Usually the brushes were re-usable (this is the $0 maintenance). Regrease the starter motor bushings with high quality grease. Re***emble all and reinstall.

The usual result was an amazingly powerful and fast-running starter, for $0 and about an hours worth of easy work.

Last edited: Sep 18, 2

 

https://www.atomichotrods.com/Atomic_Hot_Rods/DVDs.html

A Sweet Sickness is sold out. But you might be able to find a used copy for sale.

 

The jumper cables might be part of your issue.

 

maybe it’s possible, but could the use of jumper cables instead of starter wires really be that big of an issue that our starters have almost no power?

 

Don't give up!!

There is no sweeter sound when working on cars then hearing a motor fire up and run on one that you've put time, sweat and energy into !

Like stated above, make sure you have good clean surfaces on the block and starter where they mount together. Also I don't think the all-thread rod is helping you any, it's a soft rod material so it could be allowing the starter to sag just enough to cause binding.

Follow the above directions on cleaning and rebuilding the starter. I also agree the jumper cables may be an issue too. Especially if they are really long.

But don't give up, fighting problems like this is the low side of hot rods and building cars, but hearing it fire up well that's the big payoff and certainly well worth the battle....


....

 

The threaded rod was a last resort at we couldn’t find bolts for the starter. I had heard that bolts for the generator and the same as the starter, but they were much smaller and too short. I don’t know where to get really starter bolts.

 

You have a few things working against you with jumper cables. Wire diameter, length and the end clamps (don’t provide enough surface area to p*** required amperage).
The wire size on most jumper cables might be adequate for 12volts, but too small for 6 volts. Plus the other mentioned things.
I just replaced the cables on my tractor with # 4 full copper cables via Amazon, but I don’t recall seeing 0 or 00 cable size, but didn’t look real hard either.

 

Do I need 6v battery cables? We could maybe borrow some from one of our Model A’s, but would a 12v cable work? I could borrow some from my 77 f150

 

Early Ford Store - San Dimas, California

Give them a call.

Third Gen auto shows them for $12.95 but out of stock.

 

12 volt cables would be better than jumper cables, but it will at best turn the engine over slowly while heating the cables up.

Edit: I’m not trying to spend your $$, but you’ll need the cables anyways, and if the starters still don’t work properly, you’ll have a better idea of what’s going on.
Also follow the link above for the proper bolts.

 

Here is my 2 cents worth. I have a stock Model A 6v+ ground car. Initially I used modern 12 v cables and the starter would crank over very slowly. After cleaning the grounds (starter-****** and frame) and using the correct 6v cables it spun like no tomorrow. On some pieces you will have to use the original hardware as there is no subs***ute as it is just older tech. One thing you may find out out is that Ford used really good bolts/threads. If you go to the hardware store they tolerances are not that good. If you are around an airport go find an aircraft parts house. It will take some matching but the tolerances are will almost be dead on so you will have nice tight bolts.

Mike

 

Most jumper cables are Aluminum
with Tin copper coated .
Read Spec's ,, & are light by weight.
#4 12 ft long $25 ish

Pear Copper or
Tin Pear Copper.. is Heavy by weight .
Tin copper coating help's keep copper from tarnishing and corroding Read spec 's .
# 4 12ft long $75 plus

On a 6v there a big deferents
From # 4 awg to # 1 awg load / amp's it can carry ...
Allso cable ends No Alm Or Tin Alm

Copper Needed , should be used
There Cheap thin Copper & Heavy gauge Copper ends .