Why do we do these things to ourselves?

A bit of history first... Way back in 2003 my wife and I made a trip to IN to the James Dean/ Gl*** City/Ducktail Run car shows with the car club we belonged to at the time. While we were there, we were hiking through the swap meet at one of them (James Dean Run maybe) and we saw a 49 Plymouth 2 door station wagon for sale. My wife fell in love with it, so being the great husband I was, I talked with the guy about the purchase of the said vehicle. I even had the cash to buy it. Unfortunately, the guy that was walking away when we first came up on it, had laid down a deposit on the car. As hard as I tried (I offered him 2x the asking price), the guy kept his integrity and held the car until the guy came back and bought it.

Ever since then, we have been chasing a 2 door 49-53 Plymouth wagon. When we had the money, we couldn't find a car. When we didn't have the money, they showed up like the sunshine. As we have been growing older, we have a bit more uncommitted money more often. A few years ago, a few of those wagons started showing up when we actually had some money. Often the wagons that showed up were either too far away, or cost too much, or were way more of a project then I wanted to attack (old age has a way of avoiding too much work, unlike my younger self would have done). We have arrived at the point, that when a wagon shows up within a days round trip drive, we will go look at it. We have two distinct requirements. The car we look at has to be in good enough condition that I'm willing to invest my time in it (actually do the work rather then make up excuses not to), and there is a budget limit (both in time and cost) in which the completed ride will need to be road worthy. If it doesn't fit with in the requirements, we walk away.

My son is so willing to help us out in this wagon adventure (he really enjoys trying to lead us astray ), that when ever he sees something that he thinks might be of interest to us, he will send me a link to the FB marketplace posting.

My son sent me a link for a 53 Chrysler 4 door wagon Wed evening. I replied that his mother wouldn't want a big 4 door wagon like that Chrrysler (I was so sure of that!), but I showed her the pictures anyway. Her desire for an old wagon is stronger then I thought. As we discussed the Chrysler, we also discovered the 4 door wagon would be more practical for us at this time! It didn't help that the wagon didn't have any real rust on it (but missing the Hemi drive train). It also didn't help that the car's price was within reason for its condition. It also didn't help that it was less then 100 miles from home...

We took the trip to look at the wagon this afternoon, its really a clean car! Now I'm trying to figure out how much its going to cost to make the car road worthy! Parts availability have really dropped off the last couple of years. I'm looking into a V8, OD auto trans (Mopar of course), probably efi (my wife will be driving it the most), a disc brake conversion, firewall mounted master cylinder, and a rack and pinion power steering. The seats are there (need recovered), most of the gl*** is good (a couple vent windows have cracks), the floor pans and both rockers are still solid, even all the dome and tail light lenses are in good shape. There are a few trim pieces that are gone (the hood ornament and the V8 medallions), and I'm not too impressed with someones attempt of creating fake patina across the hood and front fenders, but the natural patina on the rest of the car probably would have been OK.

Its all my son's fault! I'm blaming him, even though I showed the pictures to my wife, then took her to see the car...

 

But did you buy it?

 

We need pics Gene.

 

The things we do for our women!!
Good luck.

Ben

 

When I left, I told the guy that if someone showed up with cash, he should sell the car (I've had way too many call me up with a fake sale prospect and trying to rush a sale), I also told him I was going home to crunch numbers and I would let him know where I stood in 2 weeks.

If I move forward, there will be pictures.

The woman was been married to me for 50 years (as of next month), I think I'll be OK.

 

By now she’s too tired to run away from you.

 

That is probably a good thing, I probably couldn't catch her now.

 

Nice car.
Way out of my price range.
My wife couldn't handle driving that manual trans, manual steering, drum brakes car.
If I move forward with the Town and Country wagon, it will have to have at least the modern upgrades to resolve those issues, and probably a few more. The finished road worthy project budget will be less then 1/2 of that asking price. Realistically, we are looking at a car for a 5-8 year local service life, before she probably won't be able to drive anymore.

 

Hey Gene, Great lead-in to a story, I always enjoy reading your posts here on them HAMB...but isn't it a little premature to start a thread about a potential purchase that may go no-wheres-ville?

 

Maybe...
Is it like the first time ever, there has been a posting on a project here on the HAMB that has gone no where???

 

Hi Gene, finally stumbled across this thread.

Never fails!

You know if you had asked here, the enablers would have scoured the earth for you!

I've never met your wife and you have proven to be a very handy builder, but I'd price out a pro upholstery job for her since she wants it nice and this may be her last build. That should be the final Yes/No on if it's affordable and something you are willing to take on.

Just my 2 cents.

 

@RodStRace Glad you could join this thread.

What we are spending is under careful watch, and that funding is coming out of our retirement account. The cost of this project will be underwritten her approval, and the hard line numbers are adding up fast! Those numbers don't even go into the unexpected things that could add up faster then the expected expenses.
Asking price on the car $2500
Optional reupholstered seat$800
Transporting the car home $300 est.
Drive train $2,000 (donor, between 100K & 160K miles all 200 miles from home)
Front disc brake conv. $1950
Rack & pinion steering $330 (expected to work with existing steering parts, less box & column)
Rear disc brakes conversion $540 (depending on the donor's rear axle, may not need)
Motor wire harness $1650 (efi, wife required)
Body wire harness $ 400 (because the car is + ground & 73 years old)
Total at this point $10,470
Doesn't include any tax on the parts, or any additional shipping that may be involved. Also ***umes the steering column and rear axle from the donor vehicle will work. Doesn't include a driveshaft. Doesn't include any door panels, backing panels, or headliner. Also ***umes the door latches and window lift mechanisms still function correctly. Haven't even considered things like a heater, defroster, AC (?), windshield wipers/washers, if the gauge function, seat belts, door or window seals, or tires (remember, my wife will be driving the car, these things must function). My ****py body work and having it sprayed will cost $1,000.

I'm realistically foreseeing getting close to that $25K I said was out of our price range, if everything needs the attention.

 

Cheaper than going with this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/227301548816

The list is the big ticket chunks, you know it's going to nickel and dime you another double digit percentage.

 

I showed my wife that ebay link, without showing her the price first. She said, yea that's nice, but probably really expensive, then walked away without even hearing the price.

My big ticket items added up to $10G, give or take. Maybe I can get all the odds and ends done at double that...

Vacuum wipers (maybe an electric vacuum pump?) and a 6 volt positive ground will probably add to the cost (instrument cluster and heat/defrost fan could be a problem).
I'm still digging.

 

heh...you know how it works, take your most pessimistic estimate, and double it. Then double it again.

We still need pictures, of course

 

"The more you spend the more its worth"!

 

I'll be paying attention to this Gene. Sounds like it would be a fun project if it comes to p***. I know it would be a sensible driver that would be road trippable...especially since you could save some money on lodging by sleeping in the back!

 

I can picture the road trips for sure. But somehow, I don't picture my wife sleeping in the back of a station wagon these days ... To be really honest, I don't see myself sleeping in the back of a station wagon these days either...

That is the concern of both myself and my wife! I might be OK after the first double event, the 2nd double event could be a killer, or an unfinished ride.

 

You asked a question,” Why do we do these things to ourselves?”. The only answer that I can come up with that makes any sense is, because we can?

 

That wouldn't be my first choice either. Or wifey's for that matter. But, if you are like us, we don't make reservations. We go until we're tired then pick place to stay.
It hasn't happened yet, but the "What If" scenario could happen.
Then, what would you do?

 

On road trips, we generally drive until around noon or 1 pm, at that time figure out about where we think we will be around 3pm. We are "frequent over night guests" at several hotel chains that offer us discounts. Once we figure out about where we will be at 3pm, she will check on line to see if there is one of the hotel chains we frequent, near to where we will be then. She will call the hotel chain that has a hotel and make reservations so we get the discount. We generally have a hotel room locked in before 3pm so we know there will be a room for us that night, often before we get there. Generally, by 1 pm, the hotels know if they will have a room available that night, and usually a 3pm check in is OK. Stopping early gives us a chance to see if there is anything we may want to see in the area that evening, or the next morning. If you would rather stop later in the day, you can simply guess where you think you will be when ever you wish to call it a night, but make that reversion before 3pm if you can. Gives you a better chance of having a room when you want to stop.

We started doing that after we ended up having only one rather poor hotel choice, 2 different nights on one week long trip. After a few unpleasant evenings, you change the way you do things.

 

I love staying in dives....well, some of the time...

But when I'm traveling with my wife, we usually plan ahead.

 

Another thing you can do is if you have a route, ask the main HQ booking if there are sold outs along that route. It doesn't have to be the Super Bowl to lock out an entire area.

 

So, I'm going to hang this all out as I process the whole deal.

The engine bay on the Chrysler is huge, and pretty wide open. Originally it had a 331 Hemi with the semi automatic that hid behind the Hemi. Pretty much, any Mopar motor and its mating automatic transmission I choose to put in there is not going to have a space problem. There will probably be a problem with transmission clearance to the car's lower firewall, around the transmission bell, and there will probably be a problem with the floor pan tunnel, the modern OD transmissions are much larger, much farther back then what ever was there originally. This is no surprise, it has been expected.

There are a few things where this 53 Chrysler is going to create some possible problems.
1) In 53, power steering was in there beginning process. They did some strange things back then.
The power steering pump was originally attached to the back end of the generator, and the power steering box was part of the steering column, it sat just under the driver side floor pan. Modern steering pumps put out too much pressure, and the steering box in that location was all gone in a few years. That makes any parts that may be available 70 years old, and that means anyone with the skills to rebuild that stuff is old too. To make it even more fun, that steering box mounted just under the front floorboards, has a steering rod moving forward to the front crossmember, where it pivots back towards the center of the car. At the center of the car, just behind the front crossmember, the tie rods from each wheel are attached to the pivoting rod, about 4" apart from each other.
Yes, its as confusing as it sounds! All of those parts changed in 1957. Imagine how fun (and expensive) it will be to find those parts if they are needed? I don't know if those parts on the 53 wagon need to be replaced or not, but I would rather have another option if they do.
I believe I have an option, but at this point, its just speculation! This Chrysler is called a rear steer car, that means the tie rods run behind the spindles (a front steer car has the tie rods in front of the spindles). From 1987 to 1995 GM made a rear steer power steering rack that had both inner tie rods connect to the center of the rack (about 4" apart), rather then at the ends like most rack & pinion set ups are. Rebuilt versions of those racks are still available from 3 sources for around $330. I believe I can make a part that will bolt to the center of the GM rack that I can connect the inner tie rods from the Chrysler to. Then I can replace the original steering box, steering column, and that funky pivoting steering rod with a modern column (from a drive train donor), and readily available steering column connection parts between the modern column and the rack. I do have a steering column here I can use.

2) Through the 40 and the 50s, Chrysler used lug bolts instead of studs and lug nuts to hold the wheels on the car. Those lug bolts have left hand threads on the driver side of the car and normal right hand threaded lug bolts on the p***enger side of the car. Those lug bolts thread into the front brake drum hub, and the rear axle drum and axle flange.
The fix for this mess that came about in the mid 60s was to replace those lug bolts with screw in threaded studs that used regular lug nuts. When they first started, those screw in studs were available in both right had threads or left hand threads. After a few years, the left hand thread screw in studs disappeared. The fix then was to go to the local junk yard and get the right side (p***enger side) front drum, and rear axle hub, then get all right hand thread studs and use all right hand lug nuts. Don't know if you have noticed, there are not many 40s & 50 cars in junk yards these days. Just getting rid of the left hand thread wheel lugs isn't so simple any more. I don't know if the Chrysler still has left hand threaded lug bolts, but given its condition, I would be surprised if they were replaced. I didn't think to look at the lug bolts for the big "L" stamped in them. The left hand lugs are going to be a problem if I need to use the front brake hubs for the disc brake conversion, or if I use the existing rear end with the tapered drums and lug bolts.

3) The wheel bolt pattern question. Apparently, in 53 Chrysler station wagons they thought it would be a great idea to use two different wheel bolt patterns. Chrysler offered 2 different Town & Country station wagons, one based on the lighter duty (and less trim) Windsor wagon with a 5 bolt 4.5 bolt circle wheel pattern. The other wagon they offered was the New Yorker based station wagon (this wagon is the New Yorker version). Some of the New Yorker wagons got the Windsor wheel bolt pattern, but some of the New Yorker wagons got the larger Chrysler Imperial wheel bolt pattern. There is also some discrepancy a to if that larger bolt circle is a 5" bolt circle or a 5.5" bolt circle. Are we having fun yet? Solving that problem is as simple as measuring the diameter of the bolt circle. Guess what I didn't do? In all fairness, I didn't know there were 2 different bolt patterns. I have a message to the guy selling the car, waiting for an answer.
This little challenge could effect the front disc brake conversion. According to what I have been informed, there are 2 different disc brake conversions available. The expensive kit ($1950) has new front hubs (only available in the 4.5" bolt circle) and a new master cylinder. The less expensive kit (about $700) uses your existing hubs (either bolt circle) and does not have the master cylinder included. With the larger bolt pattern, or with the less expensive disc brake kit in either bolt pattern, I would have to deal with the left hand lug bolts.

Just for fun, lets add another twist to the bolt pattern deal. It is becoming pretty obvious so far that my best options for a drive train donor will likely be a Dodge Durango. A Durango could be bought as a rear wheel drive or a 4x4 version, the 4x4 version creates a problem with the automatic transmission. There are 2 versions of a Durango, the before 2002 or the after 2004. I have found low mile rusty versions of both. The early version is the most likely place to find a 5.2 or a 5.9 motor drive train, but those also have 6 bolt wheels. The 6 lug wheel bolt pattern rear axle won't be usable in the wagon unless I want to use wheels with different lug count on the front and the rear of the car. The newer version of a Durango doesn't offer the 5.2 or the 5.9 motors, but does offer the 5.7 modern Hemi. The newer Durango does have 5 lug wheels, but the bolt pattern is larger then the 4.5" circle. The bolt circle on the newer Durango may, or may not match up with the larger wagon bolt pattern, if it has the larger bolt pattern. IF the bolt circle matches the newer Durango bolt circle, then I just have to deal with the lug bolts in the 53 hubs.

If the Chrysler happens to have the 4.5" bolt circle, I do have a more modern rear axle ***embly here, it needs an axle shaft (someone stole one out of it) and its got a ****py 2:76 rear gear, I believe it is a limited slip though.

On the bright side, the wagon has been sitting for a few years, without a cap on the gas tank fill. The tank looks pretty good from under the car, but I'm not seeing a very pretty picture of what the inside might look like. The EFI will require a different tank, if I get a Durango as a donor, I can use the Durango tank.
One possible other direction is I have found a 5/2 magnum EFI motor for $1200 that includes the hiring harness and computer, the same guy has a rear wheel drive OD auto trans that was supposedly rebuilt (has no paper work) for an additional $700. That is the same price range the donor Durango's I have found are in. That wouldn't solve my fuel tank issue, but it may cut out the $1650 engine wire harness. I could get an axle for that 2:76 rear end and use it as well.

Making these decisions will be hard, but trying to figure out how much all this will cost before I buy the car is much harder.

I would post link to the car on FB market place, if i knew how. Otherwise you guys will have to wait until I can take pictures of it in person.

 

wheel nuts...fun! I had a 56 Plymouth that used studs at one end, bolts at the other. Left thread on the left side, right thread on the right side. So each wheel had it's own attaching hardware! I feel your pain

On the rack you have to make sure to mount the rack at the same height as the original center arm, so you don't get bump steer. It might work. Beware that the rack will be for a 3000 lb car, so it'll have to work hard in it's new home.

You can probably find a tank from something besides a Durango that will work, just make sure you can get the right style pump for it to match the engine fuel system design. Return or returnless?

Sounds like a heck of a lot of work. I finally gave up ever trying to make an old car that my wife will be happy in (the black 39 plymouth coupe was the first failed attempt). She gets to ride around in new stuff now, although sometimes she goes along with me in some of my hot roddy type rides...she's gone on a few trips in the 62 Vette, and one in the Cheep XJ.

 

Jim, the rack may be working a bit harder then it did in its original car, but the modern drive train in the wagon will take 200-300 lbs off the front end of the wagon (more if the drive train is a 5.2 or 5.9), and wagons are suppose to have more weight on the rear then on the front. That has to help, right??? Maybe the rack might think that little car has 5 big people in it all the time...And the wagon will only have my 120lbs wife in it...
I put one of those racks in a 46 Plymouth, it has the same front suspension as the 53 Wagon has (all Mopar cars except the Imperial from 40 to 54 have the same suspension unless this wagon, unless it has the Imperial suspension). That Plymouth worked OK, if I'm remembering correctly.

I'm not too concerned about the fuel tank, that Chrysler wagon has a lot of space between the frame rails behind the rear axle (that is where the current tank is). My son and I installed the ch***is from an 05 Hemi Durango under a 90s Dodge Ramcharger (another one of those things I will never do again). When we got all done, there wasn't enough room for the Durango fuel tank. Through his research, he found out the tank and fuel pump out of a 90s Chrysler Caravan (minivan) had the same pressure and volume capacity as the Durango pump has. Mopar runs the EFI fuel through a return, so there will be a return fuel line.

My wife has endured all of my automotive creations, she has been in everyone of them, even driven several by herself. I think her biggest challenge with this wagon is going to be the shear size of it, its a lot bigger then the car she has been driving (by her choice) for 20+ years. I just have to get it right for her, if she likes it, she will drive the wheels off of it, life will be good. If she doesn't like it, she will make excuses not to drive it. If that happens, down the road it will go.

 

At this point, I don't think this is really a thing she wants, and she is just going along with it to make you happy. It's a good chunk of change. Will it really make you happy ? I'm asking because my wife is like that. Figure out if YOU really want this, and if it is really in the budget. I won't take from my retirement, I'm going to need that later, and later isn't far off. Sorry if I seem like a spoil sport. We all like a good project, and I'd be happy to see you get this one.

 

Speaking as a guy with a garage with no power, no lathe/mill and no welding equipment;

The stock rear axle has to go. Currently has e brake on the trans, and they have the press on flanges. So half the lug issues are gone.
Front hubs can be drilled to match new rear with press-in studs. If not, the new hub will work. I would have to farm this out ($) but it's the clean solution to the OE mess.

I like the magnum motors and have a hemi truck. Resale would be better on the hemi. I mentioned the different hemi front drive concerns in the PM.
Steering is also mama's requirement and for ease of service. Lots to do there but it seems you've got a handle on it.
As for wiring, computer to gauges and such, the earlier hemis are not as locked down and difficult as later ones, but still need research. Just as the 53 wagon has stuff that can make or break, so too the electronics on late model stuff.

The car out back is a 56 NY and I guess the wiper is under the dash. I didn't crawl around under there to confirm, but it sounds like it's not a swap anyway.