Technical 3sp trans and a over drive .. whassit ?

Make it all work as designed and you'll be smilin so big you'd have to turn yer head to finish it

 

Ok I’ll rephrase it, below 28 mph, with your foot off of the throttle there is nothing at all happening between the transmission overdrive and engine. You are coasting

 

At ANY speed if you lift off the throttle while OD is enabled (handle in) you're coasting...

 

A lot of people have suggested that a T5 5-speed is the perfect upgrade for a shoebox Ford. I dunno; I have a 1999 Ford F150 with a manual 5 speed, and find it a lot of extra shifting to drive around on a daily basis. On the ither hand, a three speed with an OD is just as effective with a lot fewer gear changes.

 

So buddy has been away this week

going to see this on the week end

is there anything I can do or check to see is the OD unit is fubar ?

I’ll be at the very least pulling it apart to clean it , inspect and paint it .

 

I had more than a few of these 'back in the day' and loved them around town. 25-35 MPH speed limit? If you were moving, you could just get into high gear and let the OD do its stuff and never have to touch the shifter. 20 MPG in town was common, much better on the highway. The R10 was usually found behind light or medium duty gearboxes, so they didn't like abuse. I killed more than a few (behind even 6 cylinders no less) before I learned that lesson. If you can find a T85/R11, those would take abuse as long as you stayed under about 400 HP.

 

But above 28 mph it slows down on level ground until it gets below 28 mph.

 

I was wondering if the many ways to damage them might also have made them a warranty problem.

 

There was a bunch of reasons why these went away. The freewheeling, ease of damage if not used correctly, lack of a synchronized 1st gear, their length made them impossible to install in most smaller cars, all entered into it, but the big one was that 3 speed manuals of any sort just weren't popular any longer. BW wasn't interested in spending money upgrading them either due to low sales volume.

 

Anyone else remember the Hone Overdrive? Bolt on overdrive for a 9" Ford center section? Used the Borg/Warner guts in the same manner but mounted the differential housing. I've wondered how those held up to low gear torque.

 

I've probably mentioned this before, but it's the story of owning an overdrive transmission and almost getting to use it. The winter of 1976, I was with a crew in Brookings, SD, building a couple of fire suppression tanks at a 3M plant. I ran across a 1966 Galaxie 500 for sale, no rust, no dings, good interior with a 352 and T85 overdrive that looked to be factory installed. It would drive, but the clutch was slipping and the guy wanted to get rid of it for $200, so I ******ed it up. On the way to the grocery store a couple days after that, some old man pulled out in front of me, I swerved and hit a light pole. Messed the body up enough that I pulled the engine, trans with OD cable and anything else I thought I could use and took it all home after the job was over. I intended to stick the '66 driveline into a cherry bodied '64 Fairlane 500 2 door hardtop I had bought cheap. It all set in the garage while I went on the road again, and while I was gone, my wife decided to move from the farm we rented into town. She called a local salvage yard and had him haul all my parts and the Fairlane off. When I asked her why, she said that I was on the road all the time and wasn't there to help with the move. That was the first serious thing that almost cost the marriage. It was a long time before I got over that one; matter of fact, I don't really think I ever got over that.

 

Hey, V+;
( ).
If the 3sp/OD R-10 is in good shape, the 3sp box is is the weak(est) link. Use the correct fluid in it, don't run it low(fluid is shared by box n od portion, but w/very small holes, so's fluid transfer during filling takes awhile), & also OD is not a racing - or a backing-up - "gear". The spacing for the OD was rather nice on most of the boxes, & once you get use to it, they're rather "relaxing" to use. . If you don't have all the components, & can't get them, you can do things manually - like the AMC Twin Stick. The "sportie" version... .
Marcus...

 

Time to tell you about my experience with BW R11, not my '51 Flathead, that was my first car, over 60 years ago. We're only going back 45 years to my '48 F1, a true refugee from the junkyard. 350,350 with a 10 bolt rear that I traded a buddy for. He said it was out of a Buick. It seemed to rev a lot and when I changed an axle bearing and counted the teeth it was a 3.80 posi. Who would of thought. I guess it was a GS. When I complained about the high RPM to a buddy that worked for the best transmission shop in town, he said " let's build an overdrive for it like what I have in my Chev pu." Get a TH400. machine a long output shaft to the T11 input. An aluminum adaptor plate, trans fluid line, shift cable and a momentary toggle switch to eliminate the kickdown. Works great! Put it in drive, down the highway, push the cable in, let off the gas and it shifts into overdrive. To downshift hold the toggle, let off the gas and it downshifts, pull out the cable to remain in drive. Easy peasy. To have fun, push the cable in and shift into first, floor it with enough RPM it will shift to OD when you let off the gas. floor it again, then it gets busy, toggle, let off gas, shift trany, hit gas and you're in 2nd under, let off the gas bingo 2nd over. Repeat for third. Never had any problems except the solenoid leaked and that one time I pulled into the grocery store, shifted to park like usual and went into the store. A few minuets later I heard over the intercom," There is an old pickup rolling across the parking lot". Oops, forgot to pull out the overdrive cable.

 

That's ingenuity! Gotta love it.

 

Anyone have a schematic for both 57, and the later 67 283 impala overdrive.
I have a 1967, I'd like to test it, put in my wagon if possible. Someone previously noted, you can byp*** the throttle switch, use a switch on shifter?

 

As virtually all BW OD work the same, a 'generic' schematic will work. While there can be minor variations between vehicles, that has more to do with the vehicle harness and not the operation of the transmission.

The issue with removing the factory kickdown switch is you lose the ignition interrupt feature which unloads the OD allowing it to shift. This can be done manually by pushing in the clutch, but fail to do this cleanly every time can damage the OD. You can't remove the relay because any smaller switch capable of being installed for hand operation won't be able to survive the high current of the pull-in coil in the solenoid and fail over time.

 

Thanks, will look into this unit soon.

 

For some reason, folks don't seem to realize that the reason the 3speeds of the day had the R-10, was because, until Fords' TopLoader 3sp, none were strong enough to warrant the R-11. Except there was one, I don't remember the BW#, that did get the R-11, but those were used in Packards, taxis, some Studes, IHs, & other very heavy-duty applications, which were sort-of a spl order deal. Later, stronger 3speeds got the R-11, as needed.

Yeah, thanks Steve. Very helpful. While things can be done manually w/o the solenoids, you do still want relays, for reasons he mentioned. & make sure reverse lockout works correctly(one way or another) - & that you use it as needed. It's not rocket science, but it's also nowhere near stupid-bomb-proof... ;D .

Marcus...

 

I have to say it, not to start a disagreement but to set it straight. For the record I still have my 56 with 235 and 3 sp OD since 1974. I have worn it out twice so I have a lot of windshield time in the 70s and 80s with it. Simply, this is not correct. @CSPIDY is right. If the OD is engaged and you take your foot off the accelerator it is direct drive not coasting.

 

If you can explain to me (using the factory manual and power flow diagrams) how it 'locks up' above 28 MPH, I'll agree with you. Under a steady application of power, absolutely. Direct drive after lifting completely off the gas? Nope.... To be sure, lifting completely off the gas will cause the car to slow on flat ground, but that's other frictional causes. Try downshifting under zero throttle while in OD and see what happens.

I've owned at least six OD-equipped cars in the past and worked on others; I know how they work. Find yourself a 5% grade hill a mile or so long and go down it in OD maintaining the speed limit. Make sure your brakes are up to it...

 

Does somebody make all the original witches, and relays ...as in a O.D. spe******t company?

 

Im not an engineer so I cant explain. All I know is that on page 7-30 of the 1955 chevrolet p***enger car service manual it lists "Transmission - Overdrive Troubles and Remedies. Mechanical: Any one of the following general complaints may be due to non standard mechanical conditions in the overdrive unit. " #4 problem states: "Free wheels at speeds over 30 mph." So that leads me to believe it should stay locked up once engaged. On page 7-31 the explanation for #4 problem reads: "Free Wheels at speeds over 30 mph. If the cam roller retainer spring tension is weak the unit will free wheel at all times. Check spring action as described under "Cleaning and Inspection" "

To me that reads that once engaged above 30 mph the overdrive should not be free wheeling

 

Most of the Thunderbird parts houses will have the kickdown sw and relays. They might be a little better quality than the other suppliers. For hard parts Van Pelt Sales has a lot of the parts, and is an excellent source. The bird harnesses are reproduced, but for others you’re probably on your own. It’s not complicated wiring. I don’t know about the Chevy’s, but Fords of that vintage typically have the inset or the hole (plugged) under the throttle pedal for the kickdown.

I have a dim memory (like most of them these days) that some Ford transmissions had an additional switch in the back of the o/d. I don’t think it was there on either the T-86 or the T-85 BW units. That’s all I’ve worked on. But I suppose other brands might have done something like that.

Maybe Steve can recall that?

 

Here's the one I have. Floor shifter will needs some craftsmanship to clear components.

 

You have to do a deep dive into BW history to get the full story. The R11 was originally introduced in 1934 and used on the Chrysler and DeSoto. BW at that time didn't offer a heavy duty three speed, so virtually all of these were sold as 'add-on' units for the OEM three speeds. The 'medium duty' T86/R10 was offered however to any takers, after 1949 mostly by Ford and American motors, although it was used by others like Studebaker. You had two choices from Ford, a light duty version with a Ford 3-speed/R10 or the more robust T86/R10. GM didn't offer an OD on many models. In 1955 the Detroit 'horsepower wars' started and the OEM and T86 trans were found wanting, so BW developed the T85, released that same year. This became Ford's performance trans, and could be ordered with OD, a R11 unit. Again, GM demurred because they were developing a 4-speed trans. This is where it gets interesting...

GM did the design work on the 4 speed, but decided they didn't want to eat the tooling costs, so turned over the engineering plans to BW for free, but with a contractual limitation that GM had exclusive use until Jan 1, 1961, locking other makers out from buying them from BW. BW did further development, basing the T10 on the T85 architecture to reduce costs. This restricted the other makers to the T85 for their HiPo offerings. If OD was optioned, a R11 OD was fitted. The 'regular' cars still got the T86/R10. Then the AMA racing ban hit. Ford actually completely dropped out of racing, but by 1959 realized no else had, so re-entered the fray in 1960. Again, limited to the T85 trans. To make the street versions more tractable, the R11 OD was added. When BW was free to sell to all comers in '61, Ford quickly added the T10 to the option list, initially as a dealer-installed option, moving to the production line in '62. As very few buyers of large, powerful cars were buying manual transmissions of any kind, opting for automatics, the R11 OD was relegated to truck use, OD of any kind disappearing from Ford cars in '65, and trucks in supposedly '72, although the newest one I've ever seen was a '70. GM briefly offered the R10 behind their Saginaw 3 speed in the late '60s/early '70s before they all disappeared for good.

If you're interested in originality, buying the repo relay will be your choice. The only repo kickdown switch available AFAIK is the floor-mounted one. There are other types however. Ford moved the switch to a firewall-mount in 1960/61 (that I know of), actuated by the throttle linkage. Good luck finding that one. They also moved the cable from under the dash into the dash. Studebaker and Rambler did some weird stuff too. I do recall seeing wiring diagrams for 'off' makes that had other functions, but my memory is just as dim. I never saw a Ford/R10 combo, AFAIK those were only used in six cylinder p***enger cars. Station wagons got the T86/R10 with the six. Keep in mind that the ODs were all more-or-less identical, with different adaptor plates to connect them to the various transmissions used and the open or closed drivelines used, so finding cobbled-together versions with mixed parts wasn't uncommon.

You can emulate the special kickdown switch by using two relays and a single-pole, single throw switch if a floor mount won't work for you. Deleting that switch and trying to control just the solenoid with a single pole switch is a recipe for disaster IMO...

You are misinterpreting what it's saying. The key phrase is 'non standard mechanical conditions in the overdrive unit'. They're saying it's malfunctioning, not locking up when it should. I've had this happen, you get three speeds of neutral. When that happens, if you pull out the cable after stopping (mechanically locking the overrunning clutch so it can't freewheel), power transmission will return, you can drive home minus OD. The electrical operations have nothing to do with the overrunning clutch, but its proper operation is critical to shifting the overdrive gears themselves via the electrical controls. I'll note here that if the cable is pulled out (disabling the OD), the electrical portion of the controls are still operating but because the OD is mechanically locked, no shifting is done.

Read the manual. It clearly explains how it works...
Borg Warner Overdrive Service Manual

The short version is this. When the cable is pushed in, the overrunning clutch and OD is enabled. The governor and solenoid control when the actual OD is engaged. Anytime the OD sees a load, whether accelerating or simply maintaining road speed, the overunning clutch is locked. Any load prevents the OD from shifting to prevent damage. When you release the throttle, that removes the load, the output shaft from the OD unit slows compared to the driveshaft speed, the clutch releases (freewheels), allowing the OD to shift if called for by the governor or the kickdown switch. Reapply power, the OD output speeds back up to the driveshaft speed and the clutch locks again.

 

I’ve got a Muncie 319 with an unknown old generic floor shift. Homemade bracket and slightly modified linkage to clear the solenoid.
And I plan on running this nos hurst dual pattern in the Merc

The shifter was for an early 50s ford with OD

 

Did that to a few transmissions in the mid-70;s

 

Very Cool

 

Hey, Steve;
Very nice in-depth writeup. Thanks.
Stude did mount the de-activating sw on a carb-linkage-arrangement(was rather oddly shaped/concocted{& no worse than any other mfgr} - but worked), instead of a floor-mounted sw. Some of the current better Stude dealers can get some of the parts, haven't shopped for them myself. Right about the R-10 n R-11 OD itself being (each of its' own kind) essentially identical for each make, w/an adaptor. Creative guys took those R-10 OD units, & made them adaptable kits for 4x4 t-cases(Warn, & some others). In Studes' case, the ones I've seen, R-10 had a closed end(bolt-on driveshaft yoke), & the R-11 used a slip-in shaft yoke. Not sure about the others' particulars.
I like them better than the 5sp trans today(2nd-OD is rather useful), but the boxes aren't as common, gear-spreads can be an less-than-perfect, & strength can be an issue. Like everything else, gotta look at the orig design parameters, current usage application(s), availability, & decide if it's worth it. As always: "Depends..." . .
Marcus...