Does anyone have experience with the 472 caddy motor? I've found one, from 73. Good engine? Inherent faults? Possible performance mods available at non-bank breaking pricing? thanks JD
Torque monster - which also translates into gas guzzler. Great for getting big old boats from point A to point B in a jiffy.
I had one in a '72 Eldorado once, well it was a '72 and not a '73 , I liked it real well. In a light body no reason to tweak it much but you can buy hot rod parts for 'em. Kieth black used to make craks and such for 'em, I've seen 'em with 2 4s and you can buy a cam for just about anything. I don't recall haveing any problems with it. When the Eldo was done with it i gave it to a kid with a Monte who was bucks down and needed transportation he drove it for years, and ended up playing with more trad stuff when trad wasn't cool. Guess he should have watched out for the company he kept.
Ouch. I'm considering dropping it in the 40 Plymouth coupe. Most of my previous plans have gotten bogged down due to m***ive money for the drivetrain i'd like. Same story, different verse. Perhaps a great price on this drive train for a temporary solution. Can get the whole drive train, running for $500 vs a $4-5k rebuild of the 455 Buick I've got.
It's one of the best engines ever made and you don't hear that much about them. The 472 products a gazillion ft. lbs. of torque at about 3000 rpm. There are plenty of racing parts available if you look around. I'd love to get my hands on one. There is a web site that's www.cadillac500.com or something like that, but you can find quite a few more. Good luck with it.
472" Cad is a fabulous motor, but be careful what year it is. If you want the most performance the early ones are better as they have much more compression but, this causes problems at the gas pump as you will not be able to run anything less than 93 octane. If your pocketbook is screaming, go for a later version where the compression was dropped and you can run cheapo regular. You can, if you do have the early version, use heads from a 425" Caddy and they will work. There is a guy in Chicago/Wisconsin who has all kinds of things for those big Cads. Sorry, can't remember his business name right now. I think it is something like Maximum Torque Specialties. He is the Cad guru. If you decide to go the Cad route, good luck. It is a fabulous often overlooked engine.
put an aluminum intake on that baby and a carb/electronic ignition conversion kit and call it good! the caddy 472/500 with an aluminum intake is not much more weight then a sbc. some things to keep in mind though. it may be cheaper up front to get that caddy but if it does get to the point to where it needs a rebuild if you look at places that sell rebuild kits it will be a lot higher then the cookie cutter engines that more people run. one more thing about the 73...i am not 100% sure but i think 73 and on are less hp/torque then the earlier ones. do not quote me on that though...i just know somewhere in there they started dropping power. the caddy 472/500 is one of my favorite engines.
That's the beauty of these Cadillac engines....they last forever and are cheap to buy because the Cadillac that they are sitting in is usually a rusted piece of ****. PLUS, they are backed by a Turbo 400, which is bullet-proof in its own right. The blocks have extremely high nickle content, so excessive cylinder wear is usually non-existant even at 100k miles The '73 472/500 engine was almost at its low point for compression, usually around 8:1.....the '74 engines were just a bit worse. Do not expect high rpm revs from a stock 472 and expect it to live long. They were meant, in stock form, for high rpms.....4500rpm design limit. They build their torque LOW in the rpm range. The nice thing about there engines is that any improvements made just take these engines from excellent to awesome. Or, do nothing other than a quick reseal and paint and enjoy the ride. These engines weigh not much more than a small block Chevy, too. So it has a weight advantange over other big blocks. If that big block Buick would fit in your car, the Cadillac engine should have no problem. There are more performance parts for these engines than ever before, too. Check out that website in the previous post. Have fun!
Thanks to everyone, especially for the links. Your info is just what I was looking for and coupled with the forum information, I think this will be a good starting point. I personally like the idea of low end torque and want this puppy to scream, I doubt that she'll ever make it to the track or have to worry about high rpm's. While money is not a problem, it is always a consideration. I've got the cash to build a 500 hp Buick (have core) or a 500 hp Pontiac, but is the $5-7K bill going to be a net improvement over a 472 Caddy when backed with the same ******? Personally, I doubt that while I might recognize the difference, I would ever use the difference.
Out of boredom I put one in an 81 Regal. Was not happy with the oiling setup, and the rockers leave a bit to be desired. Given the same scenario again, I would use a Pontiac 400 or Olds 425.
Got a 68 472/400 in my 60 Cad. I like it better than trying to rebuild my 390 for the third time. Best yet it cost me my leaky old stock ****** in trade. So, let's see, a running motor with a ****** in trade for an old trans in need of help...a no brainer.
That's the best advice anyone can give. The stock intakes have runners that practically go up since they needed lower hood clearance, so the intake is a must-do mod, and an HEI is another good (and relatively inexpensive) mod, the '73 might already have that. Beyond that, I wouldn't touch it. Don't go spending thousands building up a motor that doesn't need it. The only weak point on these motors (I'm told) is the valvetrains are kinda weak. Someone makes heavy duty replacement stuff, but it's expensive. Don't beat the **** out of it and it'll be fine. Plus you get extra cool points for running a Caddy motor instead of a belly ****on.
Sorry to jump in here but I am interested to know if the 472 motors are an easy transplant into earlier caddy's like the 1957-1960? Do these motors share any similarities with bellhousing, motor monts, radiator outlets etc? Thanks Adam
I had a '68 coupe de ville with the 472 and found it rather conservative on gas compared to my 73 lincoln 460 or especially my 77 monte with a 305 (big car+ little engine=gas pig Oink, oink!). An earlier model than 73 should give better Hp/torque with better gas efficiency stock. There is a lot of performance parts available due to its cheap, reliable and plentiful reputation which made it a thrifty alternative in the 90's to other more expensive big blocks at the time, as now.
Gas Guzzler? I have 1968 bigblock caddy that is bored a stroked to 512cid in my model A and I get 14+ miles to the gallon, not bad for a engine that makes close to 500hp and 600ft/lbs.
On a stock engine the edelbrock manifold only gains you about 12 to 14 hp. The stock rocker arms do not like rpm's over five grand but the engine makes peak torque in the low 3000 rpm range and peak hp at about 4000rpm anyway, besides with stock valve springs your valves will float at about 4500 rpm any way, so that's not an issue. Good knews is chevy valve springs will fit, I run a crane came, chevy "orange" valvesprings and I've hit my rev limiter a few times and it's set at 5200 rpm, no problems so far.
i have a 68 caddy ..not a gas guzzler at all..it gets great millage...its stock ..very quick and lots of torque...the only problem i have with is it has a mild odor to it....i have tried to find out what causes it but no one knows that i have talked to...
We put a 472 and 400 trans in my sons 47 International pickup, It's scary under a lead foot. We pulled the 472 from a $125 rusted out 130,000 mile car and with a new carb and new timing chain it runs like new. Make sure to change the timing chain and cam gear as the gear has plastic coated teeth which flake off with age.
great engine, if not racing just use Edelbrock manifold, good carb, electronic ignition and have fun. I used sanderson CAD 600 headers to slip a 512 in my '54 stude coupe, backed it with a 2004R from Monster Transmission and 3.00 gear, it will melt tires and cruise well above any safe speeds <grin>.
I've owned numerous Cadillacs with this motor. '68 was the first year for this motor, and I could pull 17mpg on the highway cruising at 75mph wrapped in leather and enough steel to build a battleship. They are not gas pigs. Reliability was awesome EXCEPT for the one time I got stranded due to the timing gear coming apart. They were made of plastic/nylon/**** from the factory to keep the "noise" down under the hood. I recommend to anyone, if you do nothing else to these engines, replace the timing chain and gears! The best 472's to grab were the early ones....'68, '69, '70(?) as they were the high compression engines and are very responsive. The combustion chambers in the heads from this vintage are smaller than the later year 472/500's and therefore are better performers and with higher efficiency. I had no problem using pump gas 92 octane....never heard a ping when the engine was set at stock tuning specs. I had considered transplanting the 472/400 combo out of a '69 Cadillac that I had into my '56 Coupe DeVille........until I saw someone else try it!! There was too much hacking and fabbing for my liking, and in the end it just did not look right. As much as I have a deep respect for the 472/500's, I'll take a warmed up 331/365/390 engine in a vintage Cadillac.....can't beat the old-school look of those motors!
The 472/500 weighs 60 lbs more than a SBC but, the guy above is right...they are huge and will probably require a bit of cutting and fitting...but it's worth it. AND...the guy with the Caddy in the Model A has got to be a bruser. Cool!
Here's how I put one in a '57 coupe de ville: http://www.donshotrodpage.net/Project-57/Page013.html Bellhousing is different, motor mounts are different and it requires a fair amount of frame crossmember modification because of the oil pump and fuel pump's locations.
Not easy, have to cut up crossmember, get rear dump oilpan and rear dump headers. Outside of that...piece of cake.
Got a 72 472 in my 53 poncho. geared to deap so its fast as hell to 60mph but thats toped out and it gets 7mpg cuz its revin so high. But I love it!
All ‘70-’76 472 and 500 engines should have a block casting number ending in 52** or 62** (referred to as the ‘5200’ block). The ‘68-’69 (and a few rare ‘70 472s) use a block that looks identical at first glance, but bears different casting numbers, has smaller oil p***ages and does not have clearance for a 500 crank. Fine for a mild street engine, but unacceptable for a serious performance engine. The 425 and 368 blocks have a slightly larger timing cover and a box shape in the casting to the rear of the intake on the driver's side. Pistons: The ‘68-’70 472" and ‘70 500 engine have the 10:1 (or 10.5:1) pistons which have a swirl-chamber dish that resembles either a ‘squashed peanut" or a big fat "****erfly". Do not ***ume your high lift cam will work with those pistons! In 1971 the compression was dropped to 8.5:1, with the piston design having a rectangular "soapdish" 47cc pocket. The ‘74 model introduced the new large chamber heads, and maintained the 8.5:1 compression ratio. The ‘74 472 sported a unique true flattop piston. This ‘74 piston has no swirl chamber, no valve reliefs, not even the 8cc depression of the ’74-’76 500" piston (round dish, approx.. 1/8" deep). [You cannot interchange 472 and 500 pistons due to the different compression heights]. Crank: Most 500 cranks have a casting # ending in ‘93 or ‘94, next to the 4th main journal. Most 472 cranks have a casting # ending in ‘24, found on the 3rd counterweight. The 425 crank is the same stroke as the 472 crank, and is physically interchangeable, but cannot be balanced effectively due to the drastic weight difference caused by the bore size. Heads: The cylinder head casting numbers can be difficult to find. In some cases, the full 7 digit number will be found on top of the smog rail, or between the rocker supports. In most cases, the last 3 digits can be found on the bottom of the head under one of the center intake ports. The 425 heads (casting number ending in ‘423) usually have the last 3 digits on top of the #2 and #7 exhaust ports. From ‘68-’73, the heads were of the 76cc small chamber design. These heads have 3 casting numbers, ending in ‘250, ‘950, and ‘902. All ‘68/’69 and ‘71-’73 cars should be equipped with a smog pump from the factory, while the ‘70 cars were not. The ‘250 and ‘902 heads are equipped with built in smog rails, while the ‘950 heads were not. Not all ‘250 and ‘902 heads were drilled for smog rails, if they were installed on a non-smog ‘70 car, even though the extra material is in the casting. A common misnomer for the ‘950 heads are that they are "hi-po" (high performance) cylinder heads; they are not! The ‘70 500 was rated at more horsepower because it had 10:1 compression, not because of special heads. The ‘950 head has a 76 cc chamber just like the ‘250 and ‘902, but differs in design by not having a smog rail cast between the pedestal support towers. Don't be fooled by the "hi-po" myth. If you are restoring a 1970 Eldorado, however, you'll want to have the ‘950 heads to be factory correct. And, not because of flow, many racers prefer the ‘950 head as it weighs about 3 lbs. less than the other heads. If you want to pay more for ‘950 heads, because they're lighter, or "cleaner" (no smog rails), OK; but don't let them be p***ed off to you as factory high performance. ‘68-’69 472" and ‘71-’73 472 and 500" motors came with either ‘250 or ‘902 cylinder heads. Though the reference books indicate a drastic horsepower loss in 1972, they changed the way they rated horsepower, with the actual horsepower of those later motors much closer to to the actual power of the ‘70 500 (see the dyno pages for details). Might be a smart idea to get in in your car and running then sell the Poncho and Bufford, and think about goinghere and buying a complete motor. They can be used for racing you know. http://www.cad500parts.com/engines.htm KB-529" BLACKBIRD PRO/Street killer sounds interesting, or do it yourself with parts from that page.
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