Using a new roller 302 where an older 302 once was?

There's nothing wrong with using an electric pump. You may want to add an adjustable fuel pressure regulator between the pump and carb.

I should add that you need to make sure you get the correct rotation timing cover for the water pump you are using. I'm pretty sure (not 100%) that there are different mech. pump timing covers out there. This may have been covered in this thread or another one already. Hmm, now that I think more about it, the reverse rotation water pump engines (serpentine pulley system) may all be EFI, so there wouldn't be a fuel pump boss anyways.

Shit, now I'm just rambling. This might help some of you, though!

Malcolm

 

!. Yes, and don't foget the the 50.oz front balancer.
2. STEEL, or the new composite gear, but there over a $100 bucks.
3. Plug the exhaust cross-overs in the back of the head.
4. You can run a mech fuel pump if you get an early T Chain cover, SUMMIT carries them or junk yard ect. Or Yes you can run electric.
5. I used the timing cover and the water pump off of my old 302 and the the balancer that goes with the 5.0L
I have seen guys run either 28 oz. or 50 oz. < BUT they both have to be the same weight (Balancer and Flex plate)
To solve the dizzy gear issue, just put in an after market dizzy for a 5.0L or you can do as I did and get a 85 Mustang only Cardon # 30-2831 dizzy from Shucks ect for about $70.00 bucks.
Hope that helps.

 

Here's what I did, I had a complete 302/C4 out of my Merc and I had a complete 5.0L/AOD trans out of a 89 wagon.
1. tear down both engines to long block and don't get the parts mixed.Mark 302 and mark 5L to save confusion.
2. Clean all the 302 parts you will be using, timing cover, water pump, intake, and oil pan if desired. I ended up using the 5L oil pan as it is a one piece rubber impregnated steel gasket and did'nt mesh with all that because you really can't see the oil pan once in the vehical.
3. Clean all the machined suffaces of the 5.0L, Plug off the exhaust crossover holes in the back of the head, and remove the timing chain cover alignment tubes in the front of the 5.0L block.
4. If running a mechanical fuel pump, be sure to put the fuel pump eccentic on the cam. Luckily my 302 had the 2 piece with tab style like the 5.0L cam had, but without the eccentric as it was a FI motor. So I just bolted the 302 one on the 5L
5. Start putting the 5.0L back together with the 302 eccentic, timing chain cover, water pump and intake AND make sure you put the 5.0L BALANCER back on the 5.0L.
6. My AOD flex plate had the right bolt pattern for the old C4 converter so I got lucky and used it and the 5.0L starter motor.
7. I used a dizzy with a steel gear for a 1985 Mustang (last year for carb) to retain the look of an early dist. It's a DuraSpark type, which I allready had in the Merc with an MSD 6A box, works killer.
Just need to fire it up after putting it back in the Merc. Everything went back together just fine.
A few pics showing the timing cover pins or tubes and the different covers ect.....The pic of the bottom of the intake is where I groved it to hold the silicone for sealing. And if running an older type oil pan make sure to use the 302 pickup tube ect. Hope this helps .

 

302 don't all have the same firing order. I couldn't get my 302 roller to run with the same firing order as the flat tappet 302 that it replaced.

 

So I could actually use the 28 oz flexplate and balancer from the old 302 instead of buying the 50 oz flexplate and balancer for the new roller (since the new roller motor didn't come with the flexplate or the balancer)?

And yes, this helps a TON!

 

Yes from the info given to me from a 5 Liter board and a few magazines YES. And goddamnit ONLY the HO's used the 351W firing order OR stuff like the 303 camshafts. Be sure to see which one you have, mine fire like the old ones!

 

NO,you must use the 50oz balancer/flexplate with the HO motor....you cannot use the 28oz units.

And from another post....the timing covers are intechangable,it is the water pump itself that decides which direction it flows.

And you do not need to change the cam to use a mechanical pump,just add the eccentric and matching timing cover!!!

I know a roller motor will run with a cast distributor gear....but trust me....in time you will chew it all up!!

Also,if you use an 5.0 HO,it has the same firing order as a 351w,also the oil-pan and pick-up tube are different then older 302`s.It is a double-hump unit made to fit the K-member in the fox-body cars.

Any other questions,ask me...I have done this swap more than once.....

 

Weee . . . ok, now my head is spinning. The motor I bought is an 87 HO motor from a Mustang.

I have a double hump pan, so I'm good to go there (though curiously it was the pan on the 68 302 in the car when I bought it.

I don't have the 50 oz balancer or flexplate, so I'll have to get those (I do have the 28 oz units from the 68 block but apparently those won't cut it with the HO motor?). Will the 50 oz flexplate work with my starter and torque converter from the 68 302 set-up?

Also, would it be better to just upgrade to the electric fuel pump instead of the mechanical since this is a higher horsepower build than stock (around 300 hp)?

Will the water pump from the 68 302 work with the new timing cover if I do decide to go with an electric fuel pump? If I do use the reverse flow water pump meant for the HO motor, what would that effect? Would there be an advantage to using that water pump?

Is the 85 Mustang only Cardon # 30-2831 dizzy the one I need for my 87 HO motor? I also assume the firing order is not the same as my 68 302, correct?

Sorry for all the questions . . . it just seems I'm getting conflicting info here.

 

50oz Flexplate will work with your current starter as long as it is the same tooth count.

You can get a higher-pressure mechanical pump...or upgrade to an electric pump,thats totally your decision really.I`d go with a Holley Blue and regulator.

The timing covers are no different from the `68 to the `87,only difference is the `87 has no provsisions for a mechanical fuel pump,no other differences.So the water pumps are easily interchangable.

The reverse flow water-pump was used for the serpentine belt system because of how they had to route the belt,thats the only reason why they did it.

You could go a few different ways with the distributor.If you use the one meant for only a 1985 Mustang 5.0 HO with a 4bbl/5spd trans,you would also need to get the Duraspark box,and the harness from a donor vehicle (any duraspark vehicle will do)....or wire it up yourself using diagrams tha can be found by googling Duraspark.the Duraspark is good for 400+hp,and is very reliable.

MSD and I believe Accel also sell distributors that will work,and you can buy the steel or bronze gear seperately to make your current distributor work also.

It really is a worthwhile swap,I have done it on more than one car,and am currently doing it to a `62 Meteor as we speak.

 

BTW.....the 5.0`s used a 4-bolt crank pulley,and some of the earlier motors used a 3-bolt pulley.

 

Here is an easy diagram for Duarspark
http://www.mustangsteve.com/conversion.html
I use it with the ford box in two cars and a MSD box in another.

 

OK, here's something interesting I found when taking apart my old motor yesterday. It's a 68 302 but is running the double hump oil pan (from a fox body Stang I believe). Is the oil pickup different for the early Ford pan than the double hump Fox body style pan? I now have an 87 HO roller motor and want to make sure that I have the correct pan and pickup since the new motor did not come with either.

 

Can anyone help me with my oil pan question above? Thanks in advance.

 

Oil pump pickup is specific to the pan - if you change the pan, you need the corresponding pickup.

 

You're well on your way. This will be a beautiful swap and reward you with surprising performance when you're done. The guys helping you are right on track. It seems complicated but in reality it's quite simple.

To answer the question on the pan I'll start by saying ALL Fox body double hump pans are basically the same for the 5.0. The pick-up tubes were pretty much the same as well. The Fox bodied Fords include the Mustang, Fairmont, Capri, Thunderbird, Cougar, etc.

In 1981 Ford change the way they balanced the crankshaft. The counterweights were redesigned and MORE weight was placed outside the crankcase at BOTH ends. The earlier sbf's including the 351W have a 28 oz imbalane on the lower end. The `81 up 302 aka 5.0 is set at a 50 oz imbalance. This means in each case the counterweight on the balacer AND the flywheel/flexplate need weights adding up to the respective amounts to become "neutral". So this is why you must match the balancer and flywheel to the crankshaft design.

Q.: What is the crankshaft balance factor of my 302 or 351W/C engine?


A.: 1968-80 302 engines were built with a 28-ounce imbalance factor.
1981-2001 302 engines were built with a 50-ounce imbalance factor.
1969-97 351W engines were built with a 28-ounce imbalance factor.
1970-74 351C engines were built with a 28-ounce imbalance factor.



If you run into the 3- bolt, 4- bolt lower pulley mismatch problem it's no big deal really. Simply mark the pulley you're using with the bolt pattern on the harmonic balancer and drill. The pulley rides on a machined flange built onto the balancer so the redrilled bolt holes need not be perfect perfect since they only retain the pulley to the balancer. No worries there.

If your engine is an `87 5.0 you'll find that your block is drilled for a dipstick tube that works with the Fox double sump pan. Simple procure factory parts if you don't have them already. Don't for get the pick-up tube is held up in the middle by a special main stud. Your engine probably has this stud already. If it does not get one from Ford, it's gotta be there.

Now going to the front cover it depends on what you want. You probably want the early V- belt setup. The cool thing is it all bolts right on and works fine. The reverse rotation system is for the serp belt applications. On this setup you'll find that not only is the water- pump backwards but also the front cover too. The reason is because the water flows into the engine from the opposite direction. I suggest you use the V- belt style cover with the V- belt style water pump.

The part about this that has me scratching my head a little is the fuel pump eccentric. I "think" you could bolt one right onto the 5.0 cam gear and be fine. I like mechanical pumps myself and would go that route if it were mine. Maybe it's the `94 up cam gear that won't accept a fuel pump eccentric. I remember something about this, but don't worry I'm 99% sure you'll be fine ther too.

Tooth count and converter/ pressure plate bolt circle boils down to big bellhousing/ small bellhousing. The bigger one used mostly on trucks with 164 teeth and an 11.25" bolt pattern. The smaller at 157 teeth and 10.5" bolt pattern. Here are Ford's charts.....

Flexplates first:

M-6375-A50 Stamped Steel 164-Tooth 50 oz.-in. Fits 1981-01 5.0L engine with AOD or C-4 trans. with large bellhousing.
Will not Fit C-6.
M-6375-G302 Stamped Steel 164-Tooth 28 oz.-in. Fits 289/302/351W,C,M with large bellhousing C-4 trans. and AOD.
M-6375-E302 Stamped Steel 157-Tooth 50 oz.-in. Fits 1981-01 5.0L with small bellhousing C-4 trans. 13-1/4" diameter/
10-1/2" bolt circle.


Now flywheels:

PART NUMBER MATERIAL RING GEAR UNBALANCE APPLICATION
M-6375-A302 Billet Steel 157-Tooth 28.2 oz.-in. Pre-1981 302 engines and 351 engines using 157T flywheels. Meets SFI 1.1.
M-6375-B302 Cast Iron 157-Tooth 50.0 oz.-in. 1981 and later 302 engines. Exact replacement
&#10112; for 1986-95 Mustang stock unit.
M-6375-C302 Billet Steel 157-Tooth 50.0 oz.-in. 1981 and later 302 engines. Meets SFI 1.1.

Again trucks were the applications you would most likely find the larger 164 tooth flywheel and bigger clutch.

Hope this helps.

 

Does anyone happen to know the part # for the 4-bolt crank pulley we need? I think I found one on ebay, but want to be sure before I pull the trigger. The guy said he got it with a bunch of 351C parts though. Part#D00E-6312-A

Thanks!

 

You don't need a 4-bolt crank pulley - simply redrill your existing pully. The pulley registers on a lip on the damper, so exact hole placement isn't critical. I did this years ago on a 351W I dropped into a late-model Mustang - simple.

Another problem you may have is the dampers themselves are different depths. You may find the mounting surface of the late-model pulley is much further forward than the mounting surface of the original pulley.

In my situation, I need to space out, so fabbed up a simple aluminum ring spacer. Not sure what the solution would be to go the other way...

 

Another option I read about in another thread was this balancer from Speedway. Comes in 28 or 50 oz. with both 3 and 4 bolt patterns for the pulley.
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/pl/140,1802_SandB-Ford-Harmonic-Balancer.html

 

OK, last question . . . I think (never say never, right?) . . . I ended up ordering a bronze distributor gear. I missed it earlier, but I believe someone said that that bronze gears were for racing only applications. This car will see street duty. Will I be ok with the bronze gear?

 

The bronze gears are typially too soft for every day usage. You need a steel gear I think.

 

Use the steel gear from Ford racing, they also make the plugs for the air injection ports in the heads....don't forget that your fireing order changes to that of a 351......Ford racing has a nice document explaining all this stuff...I believe its in there catalog.

 

Like I said before....dist # 30 2831 has the steel gear and the advantage of Duraspark and you can use a points style small cap. Jim Green here in Wa. puts a Ford pickup and Chevy advance in and recurves a dizzy for about 120 bucks that will be better than any Mallory, MSD ect distributor. Run a set up like that with a MSD 6a box and you will have one HOT and reliable ignition system. The 30 2831 distributor is only a little bit more money than the gear itself. And NO, I would not use a bronze gear myself for a street app.

 

Thanks guys. I should have read more closely. I'll get the steel gear. The reason I didn't go with the dizzy you recommended K-member is that I already have a Pertronix set up for my current dizzy and didn't really want to add the Ford or MSD box.

 

Welcome to the world of Ford. Where answers are never simple, until all the variables are covered.

I'm working on convincing my friend to do this with his '68 Torino.

 

the cam in the roller 5.0 engines is steel billet, if you use the iron distibutor drive gear with this cam it will destroy itself in short order, disseminating sintered iron powder and trash throughout your oiling system, which is, well, ah, not so good. the ONLY roller-cam, duraspark type 5.0 distributor is for a manual trans, '85 mustang gt application. get a reman from napa or somesuch. similarly, the '84-'85 5.0 manual trans is the last application to use a mechanical fuel pump, and the double roller truck timing chain. this is then, the fuel pump eccentric you need to use, as it is narrower. the front covers on those '84-'85 gt's are also unique in the fact that they are for the reverse rotation pumps used with serpentine drive. conventional rotation pumps require their own front covers. all balancers from 11/82 on up are for the 50 oz imbalance, but the late explorer ones have the tone ring for the crank sensor to drive the EDIS. explorer 5.0's have a completely unique short front cover, water pump, and accessory drive. early stick flywheels can be rebalanced to the 50 oz as well. earlier 5.0 headers or 302 manifolds won't fit the gt40p head used on the explorer engines.

 

sorry, didn't read ALL the posts before posting. guess that'll learn me

 

We just pulled the 289 out of my Falcon and put in my 51 Merc pickup today and I already had Duraspark in the Falcon with the Ford box, but the truck has a MSD box and WOW what a difference! I will run all of my Durasparked rigs with a MSD box from here on out. I rebuilt the 289 about 10 years ago, has a nice cam, windage tray, HV oil pump, Duraspark and other goodies like 69 351 W heads and it's a little worn out, but damn, with the MSD box, boy is it crisp and responsave.

 

I ended up buying the Professional Products damper. I'll be using my 3-bolt pulleys, brackets, an early water pump (68 Ford Mustang) and early timing cover. The problem I'm running into now is the fuel pump eccentric is hitting the timing cover. Some guys said they didn't have this problem, other guys did. It may be the fact that I am using a double roller timing chain for the 87 HO engine with my early timing cover. It looks like I either need to find a fuel pump eccentirc that is shallower or grind about an 1/8th inch or more off the eccentric I have? Anyone have a solution for this (short of switching to an electric fuel pump)?

 

Zig-Zag Wanderer covered it well in post #55

 

Thank you Zig Zag! I'll get this bitch figured out yet!