Subframes gone wwwillldddd!!

One thing I'm not understanding is how many comments about having an ugly column if the cars subbed. Haven't you heard the column isn't a part of the sub? So run your original column if that's what you want. But don't use it as an excuse to say subs are no good. This discussion is a good example of guys parroting what someone has told them and they took for gospel. Christ there are comments regarding how bad subs are from guys who weren't even near driving age when my subbed car was put on the road over 50,000 mi ago. Get out on the open road and put some real miles on your car. All these excuses like I drive my car every day and it's fine. How far do you drive it every day, 10 mi, 20mi? How fast is that drive, 35-50 mph. Get out on the road and put 500-600 mi or more in a day at 70 mph for 3-4 days in a row and see if you still think the same way. Some holler about tradition, well tradition was making the car as good mechanically as the new ones at the time. Were there **** boxes back then? Yes, but because the guy didn't have any better skills or the equipment we do now. It wasn't because he set out to build it that way, he did the best he could. They upgraded from mechanical to juice brakes, guess that wasn't traditional but they did it. Upgrading from drum to disc in heavy car is no different. Don't take this wrong I like a traditional styled car but it's a little over the top when guys ignore safety issues especially ones that are out of sight because they say "it's not traditional" So let the roasting begin but don't try to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because 90% of you that will weren't even a gleam in your daddys eye at the time. Hell some of your dads weren't even a gleam in their dads eye.

 

#1- in practice, abs will not stop as fast (distance wise) as conventional brakes BUT they will keep rolling so you DO have some steering control.
theory is great but it don't stop the car...

#2- i've had to (notice i said had) drive a couple of high end cars (i'd mention brands if it was relevent) that the traction control would NOT let the tires spin.
it also would not let me park the cars because of it.
they wouldn't do anything but idle (not fast enough to even move the cars) and it was solid ice.
had to get pushed.
had these pieces of **** had some way to turn off the trac control, i could have parked the ****ers without wasting 3 peoples time...**** the germans...(better not let the wife see this)

 

Eh thats just an excuse, dont be lazy! Haha....have you (Im sure you have) seen what freaking balljoints go for on those things??? I almost cut my 57 Super up and threw it in the garbage when I saw the prices. Was VERY happy to shake it and find them to be new!

Very good point made there, nothing aftermarket for cars like that.

Seriously tho...this thread has made us NJ guys look like the Hatfields and teh McCoys. Bob/Mike and Bill, what happened here?

Supersized, I had to reread your post to see if you were serious. That was ridiculous logic to say the least. Trucks have kingpins, yes...they are also medium to heavy duty apps. Kingpins are VERY strong, no lie there. But thats why early IFS ride more like a truck than newer cars. The trend was moving toward better handling/braking...more suspension travel and better response per side...thats why you would not find ANY p***enger car with king pins nowadays. No knock at kingpins for thier strength, but they are not ANYWHERE near the handling of balljoints. Like I said with the Merc post above, I would personally adapt a ps setup on, maybe discs. I wouldnt subframe it...would it ride better? ****..Im sure it would! But then you are opening a whole can of worms with relocating sheetmetalmounts, actually cutting/welding/measuring in the new subframe....thats a lot of work IMO for my application (cruising the highway) a result not worth it.

Secondly, no, locking up brakes like a scared old lady is not the "best" way to stop a car. That is one of the drawbacks of drums, so is heat induced brake fade..less equalization side to side on a consistent basis and the list goes on...

I would love to modernize my 51 Ford, but honestly, the motor/trans is already in...and until I pull it out to detail it I wont upgrade anything. Im looking into it, and teh disc kit seems nice and easy, but there is a PS conversion and a rack/pinion conversion...just have to figure which to go with. Or maybe just brakes? Personally I think the under the floor master and small drums on teh shoeboxes ****s, but to add insult to that I am running a mildly worked 351w/C4/8" that puts out TON more power than the stock setup...so I have to be realistic on what that setup was designed to safely stop. I would hench a bet that my 0-60 time might just be a tad different than the ol fathead.

 

help me baby jesus...I'm upside down....


as previously explained, Disc brakes are a vast improvement over drum-due to increased stopping distance. if the ability to lock the tires up was the deal...just jam a broom stick in the spokes, clem.

kingpins versus balljoints.
okay, raise your hand if you missed the boat on the replies.

it's this simple- a balljoint, by design, allows for more articulation than the previous design. alot more- meaning more travel, which allows for a smoother ride. this also has alot to do with a-arm length (equal versus unequal) shock position, and how tight the coils had to be to hold the car up.

am I actually writing this down?....
screw it. cost had very little to do with design changes.

how the heck did ANYONE save money by changing to 12 volt again?

 

how the heck did ANYONE save money by changing to 12 volt again?
__________________


I guess maybe he figures the strand or two of wire less in each piece saved them a bundle LOL

 

the only thing wrong with sub frames is the quality of work of the installer. would you want that guy installing your must II.?

 

alright lux, u and subframes get along just fine, and theres nothing wrong with that. From what i see in ur arguments u seem to know all the specs and applications. You could possibly be the best subframer out there. It probably pays off for you. But that doest mean its good for everybody out there. I just have a personal problem with them because i've seen too many gone wrong. and also its the little things, even though u dont have to use the 70's column, I SEE THEM ALL THE TIME. Sometimes with a Nova or Camaro wheel. WTF are people thinking??? Everybody that does them are not all of the best craftsmenship. The day that everybody goes to you for subframes may be the day they are acceptable, but as long as i see ****ed up tire location, and redneck ingenuity, it will be seen as a bad thing in my view. For (ME) subframing just doesnt pay off if do you do it your self for cheap or pay some one 2 - 4 grand to do it.....remember for me, not you or anybody else. ME!!! lol
anyway whats worse then subframes are FRAME SWAPSS LETS START ANOTHER 10 PAGES OF FIGHTIN!!!!!

 

Hey...I hear you. I have seen ALOT of nightmares..be it stock, subframed, MII set up, "other"-(Nascar style gone horribly worg) 'Vette suspensions that somehow end up sitting like 4x4's...people attempting Ch***is swaps that have NO business doing that (wanna cry? check this out- pristine 67 g.t.o.-389,tri power,4 speed car-shop sold the owner on a chris Alston ch***is...then ordered one for a 55 chevy. suffice to say, it didn't even get CLOSE to fitting. sooo, they cut out EVERYTHING from the cowl to the rear bumper...and didn't even bother to brace it up. so the owner now has a 10 thousand dollar ch***is, a 502,a 4l80e, and some of a gto that will not work together. I'm pretty good, but I am not THAT good. he asked if i could fix it, and I said NO. at least the poor ******* with the shoebox can cut it off and start over...)
the lack of imagination when it comes to steering columns is pretty lame. very little looks worse at the end of the day, and it's not rocket science. ya need a stick with the original steering wheel at one end, and the ability to attach to the clip on the other. bearings for support, and (preferably) the ability to bolt to the firewall. guys can figure out how to get the clip in...but can't figure out how to attach the old column? I dunno. mabey they were tired.

I agree. Subframes aren't everyones forte'That's cool...more for me. and i agree...if done properly, you will swear by them however, in the same breath...if done IMPROPERLY...you will swear AT them.

Frame swaps are cool. nothin' looks better than a deuce frame under a 30-31 model A

 

Maybe the dude likes it just the way it is.
That's cool with me

 

Well said, as I said earlier, I've been driving one for over 17 yrs at close to 100k miles at high speeds and LOVE it.
And those that keep talking about how many bad ones they've seen, you see them because they're bad. The good ones go unnoticed because that's the goal.

 

"The good ones go unnoticed because that's the goal."
AMEN.
It's all about the craftmanship. I well done subframe should look like it "grew" there.

 

No ****!

 

OK so, let me get this straight:
1) Reasonable people agree that the only reason to stub a frame is
if you can't get a kit for better handling, brakes, etc. for your 57 Buick or other semi-rare car.
2) Chopping off a 50-year old front clip and grafting on a 30-year old clip is supposed to fix it.
3) The donor stub has to be from a car of similar weight and wheelbase dimensions.

Can I ask a couple of stupid questions here?

1) Why not just improve what was there?
2) ***uming that the donor car is not a unibody, if better handling, brakes, whatever, is the goal, wouldn't you want the back half of the frame too?
After all, the maker of the original 30-year old donor car didn't necessarily have your '57 Buick in mind when he drew up plans for his 'improvement', did he? I'm no ch***is engineer, but wouldn't you get even better performance if you used the whole frame so the CG is close to where it should be when you drop the body back on? After all, the back half of the frame is just as important as the front half, if you want to correct under- or oversteer, excessive body roll, poor braking, and a host of other maladies. A ch***is swap isn't traditional, but neither is a frame stub.
Why not use the whole thing, if you're interested in 'doing it right'?

 

Those white walls are not periord correct!

 

Thinking back when I located the Chevy straight axle in the front of my Stude... Measured 6 times... weld once. Then located rear end... measured 6 times... weld once. No sub frames here… but that was my preference... I just boxed it in… using early 50’s Chevy drum brakes.

We still run drum brakes on the 65 Satellite running 130+mph in 1/4 mile too... what's the big deal with disc brakes... From experience, I can out brake most of the guys I race?


[FONT=&quot]
I guess the big question I have is... why all the hate... wouldn't it be more productive of you to get your *** out in the garage and work?

Rather then criticize & complain... perhaps explain some options. I know I’ve received some great ideas from people who persuaded my opinion… such as the 308 6cyl for the Hudson… (leads welcome... going tomorrow to look @ one)

The people who built these cars were happy with them... They built them the way they wanted them. Who are you to criticize them?

Appreciate them for what they are... if you don't like it... buy it... in fact buy all of the cars you don’t like… Change them over to the way you like them... Start now! Set a goal to buy one and change it to the way you like them… do one every week.... knock out 52 of them a year... with all of the effort I see criticizing & complaining this shouldn't be a problem for some you... Start now![/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

i dont think there is anything wrong with a correctly done subframe, im building my own crossmember for my shoebox and using tubular control arms and disc brakes. I need the the travel for the airbags and i want rack and pinion steering so this option is the best for me. A little anti-dive angle built in will be a nice upgrade as well. They didnt bother to factor that in on the factory set-up. Now when i build my traditional rod it will be done period correct. but on a kustom where you wont see any of these components anyway, who gives a ****

 

I bought a 40 merc that has a 74 nova sub frame. It appears to be done very well and looks very clean. I would like to put a small block Ford in it. Has anyone done this?

 

btt i like this post

 

Stop starting ****! Bias plys are better handling, drum brakes are better stopping, and kingpins are better than balljoints; get used to it!

 

..and people from New Jersey hate Californians!

 

I hate Scotland!

 

Oh ****, its Glasgow Kentucky. ****. Well, I hate Kentucky too!!!!

 

3 posts, 5 min, and the HAMB is summed up!

 

what about Snuffalu***us?

 

Snuffalu***us's go WILD TOO,,,,

 

Thats actually a DVD that only gets advertised after 2am on local channels. Must be 18 to order.

 

All it needs is a bumper sticker "Rods by Wonder... (Stevie Wonder) - Styled by Keller... (Hellen Keller) " ...

 

Some really good points made. I have a vested interest in this post. About 8 years ago, I bought a 54 chevy that was abandoned next to a barn with no engine or ******. My plan was to fix it up all "Traditional" style and maybe just lower it. My dad on the other hand was really into doing subframes (It's his hobby that he does on the side) but he had never done a car, only trucks. I wanted to learn how to weld and he wanted to teach me by putting a Nova clip on my car.
So we put the clip on, and low and behold the frickin tires were just about sticking out! So much for measuring twice and welding once. I took the measurements off of a 1950 chevy and we took the difference out of the crossmember of Nova clip.
Well the wheels sit fine now but I have clearance issues with my exhaust manifolds (i have a 350 SBC) because the A arms are too close to the engine. So now that I want to get this car on the road I don't know what to do about my clearance issues. Seriously, if I had to do it all over agian, I would have just left the suspension alone. It's been more trouble than it's worth. I did learn how to cut and weld. Now I just need to work on the measuring first part.
Anyone else ever face this kind of issue? Any suggestions?

 

Done correctly, a clip job makes a vehicle better.

But, it depends on a few things. What are you taking out, what are you putting in, and how will it change the vehicle?

My personal experience with this is varied, but the best example comes from my trucks. I've had both a '56 GMC and a '55 Chevy pickup. The GMC was bone stock- 316 Pontiac and all. Straight axle, drum brakes, manual steering.

It rode and steered...like a truck.

It was my daily driver. I didn't mind it, but I didn't love it either.

The '55 Chevy P/U had a Volare' clip under it when I bought it. IFS, power steering, disc brakes, and adjustable ride height with the torsion bars.

There was no comparing the two. The '55 was a relative joy to drive. It rode, turned, and stopped much better than the GMC. The Volare stuff looked fine under the truck, and it wasn't a 'pro' job by any stretch. The previous owner told me he'd installed it, and got his measurements from another truck that had been pro-built. He must have known how to measure, because it worked great.

If I ever have another '50s-era GM pickup, I promise you it'll be clipped. I had to drive both of these trucks to work everyday, and there was simply no comparison.

I've also done before/after stories with '60s-era Chevy IIs, and they become capable handlers after installation of one of the many aftermarket clips out there. The bolt-on nature of the front subframe makes it impossible to screw up- the bolts go into the factory holes and it's aligned.

If I ever have an early Chevy II, it will have an aftermarket clip.

My personal '50 Buick still has the stock front suspension. I'd like to lower it and add disc brakes. I'd like to replace the factory friction shocks with modern tube shocks. It's probably a great candidate for a clip.

At this time, I don't know what I'll do. I may or may not clip it, as I'd really like to find ways to optimize what I've got. I know I can get discs adapted to my spindles. I know I can get the friction shocks rebuilt and set to work at a lowered ride height. Will that be enough to satisfy me on this car? Probably, since it's not a daily driver and never will be. I won't have to drive it to work everyday and it probably won't be too bad on the days I do choose to bring it in.

But, I'm still thinking about it. I have a bare GM A-body ch***is sitting in my driveway, and a complete suspension and steering setup for it. I was thinking about completing the ch***is and selling it, but then I looked at the Buick and started wondering if it could be adapted.

The bottom line is this- Some cars and most trucks from the past could benefit from a front suspension upgrade, but it's up to the owner to determine what they want.

Once an owner decides they want to clip their vehicle, they should research it heavily to learn what will and will not work for them. Done correctly, a clip swap can offer solid upgrades. Done wrong, it's a nightmare that'll probably have to get removed completely and re-done correctly.

It's a big move not to be taken lightly, but it's sure an easy call to make on old trucks.

~Scotch~

 

I have a 69 camaro clip disk brakes, drop spindles on my 56 truck. Eric Lemones and my late brother Victor installed it. At first I didn't think it would be all that great.
But since I have been driving it for two years I have changed my mind. It drives very well and stops better than before. I like it ...