NON-bondo using metal finishers...

When you guys are "tapping" out you vintage steel, do you leave the little high spots left from the "picking hammer" and just grind them down with the surrounding metal??
Also, when you are done grinding and blending all the steel, is it really smooth??? I am trying to use as little bondo if any on my '47, BUT the 2 rear fenders I have are F'ed up badly!!! I soda blasted them at work, and now am picking, tapping and ponding them out, but I am UNABLE to get a smooth uniform surface!!! I usually get the item in "damn good shape" and skim coat it, but I am trying to do the BEST I can on this virgin steel, (that has at least 2 cans of bondo in them from prior repairs...gone now though) to not have to use much more than some "finishing glaze" on them...any advice?? Thanks HAMB Brothers/sisters.....Ken

 

I use a slapper and a dolly that matches the radius and once I can't get it any smoother I use a shrinking disc.

If the damage is to bad then you might have to cut out the piece and weld in a new one.

Try this web site. www.metalmeet.com

John

 

Hey,

No, ya wouldn't want to grind down those high spots, instead use
your dolly, hammer on, to drive them to just below normal conture.
Be careful when hammering metal on dolly, that you don't stretch
the metal further, causing shrinking of that area to be necessary.

Swankey devils c.C.

 

The metal stretching is my concern. I have the fenders off the car. I have them "tapped" out so the "very small'' high spots are towards the outside of the fender, but if I start tapping back in to the fender even with a dolly behind it I would think I would be stretching the metal!!! the basic shape of the fender is there!! and looks pretty good, but NOT like I have seen on the rides that are left "bare steel"...Ken

 

sounds like you are learning in a hurry why very few people that claim to metalfinish their work REALLY do. the difference between real close and perfect is as much labor as getting if from junk to really close.

yes you'll likely put some stretch into the metal, time for a shrinking disc! you might also consider a picking hammer with a larger radius to minimize the goosebumps.

oh, and if the metal has already been smashed and filled, is it really "virgin"?

 

sounds like you have a sharp point on your pick tool...dull that thing and round it slightly, otherwise you will be left with pointy little protruding dents. Maybe take it easy on the blows, might be hitting it harder than it needs. This shit takes practice, and a whole boat load of patience.

 

Thats why I am asking for the advice, tired of getting it "close"! I want it BETTER than close and have all the time in the world to learn --N O -- hurry at all!!!. I have seen post and "exclamotions" on the shrinking disk, just never had the opportunity to buy one! Maybe NOW is THAT opportunity????
And I say "virgin" only because it was never bumped back out! only covered in mud!!! The "pointy" hammer is NOT really that pointy! I ground it round N smooth a while ago, It is just the "pointest" hammer I have. I'd say it is as round as a BB pellt!!

 

Find an old body repair book. There is so much info in those because they are teaching you how to fix the old stuff & shapes. Plus labor was way cheaper than a new fender so it shows how to fix, not replace. They also rarely used lead filler for dings or waves, so they show how to get it straight.

When working a dolly, you don't want to hear that sharp clang of the hammer & dolly because that is stretching metal. The dolly should just support the nearby metal.

Also these books tell how to use lighting to help with finding waves, etc. Bodywork is the study of reflected light

Edit: Those pointed hammers are mostly used for very fine finish work, not general dent work. They stretch metal. I rarely use mine.

The one I have is "Automotive Body and Fender Repair" by C.E.Packer 1946, shows mostly late 20s to late 30s car repairs. I've heard this book mentioned in car magazines in years past, so you may find one on the web searching for old book dealers, etc. I think a lot were published.

 

Hey Ken,

A picking hammer has to be one of the most abused, poorest
tools ever devised for "metal work"! A picking hammer is not a
bumping or roughing tool. Its' use comes into play only after a
panel has been bumped out, slapped or hammered into shape,
and a pass with a vixen file or grinder pass has been made.
The tip of the picking hammer is used on very small low areas
of damage that are just below normal contrue, again after the
panel has been bumped up to normal conture.
Tap these high areas left by the picking hammer down, using
a combination of on and off dolly. In the future, when using a
picking hammer, use a heel dolly or the flat side of a universal
dolly and hold it on the outside of the panel you're picking. This
will minimise any stretching caused by the pick end of the hammer.
Start your repair from the undamaged areas of the panel and
work into the damaged areas, going slowly, and always checking
undamaged to damaged areas. Check to see that any work that
you're doing to the panel is corrective, not destructive!

Swankey Devils C.C.

 

I dont usually use the pointy part of the hammer unless i have too on a tight corner because of the little peak marks

you can work out all the dents but your going to end up with streched metal from the hammer dolly work. The only real way to get rid of it when your working the middle of a panel or any part that can't be shrunk using a shrinking tool (see covel or lazze for shrinker strecher) is heat. I do two methods 1 is tig torch, this works really good especially for oil canning. you use the tig torch to pinpoint heat areas and then use a blow gun (shop air) to cool the spot to keep it from warping. also you can use an oxy/acet. torch with a small tip like a 1 or a 0, heat the area till it rises and is slightly red then hammer it with a dolly.

the tig torch also helps when a panel is oil canning just heat little spots and then cool in the area that is oil canning

 

oh and those hammers with the grid on them that claims that it will shrink is bull shit, all it does is put grooves in your panel.

 

this is the shrinking disc you need and the video this guy has that goes with it will teach you how to fix the problem you have. I have the video and I learned alot. we can try and tell you all day long but to see it is something different.

http://stores.ebay.com/Pro-Shaper-Tools-and-Videos_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQftidZ2QQtZkm

John

 

THANKS GUYS!! Another wealth of info from THE H.A.M.B.!!! My "picking hammer" ws my cure all!! That seems to be the problem! I will look for that book, and I "guess" I will try that shrinking disk and video??? It just seems like the info-mercial type stuff!!! I guess it is because I haven't really seen it in person, but have seen body guys "work" out the dents!?!? IF that makes sense... Thanks again, I'm OFF of "picking" duty, and am working the dent from the outside IN!!!...Ken

 

Bolt the fender back on the car with a couple of bolts , It gives it some strenght when using the hammer ,dolly + file , been there

 

I did that at first, but was unable to get into all the corners, nooks, N crannies!! This fender was RELLY bad!!!

 

I don't like you anymore...

 

I got my shrinking disc from sunchaser tools. it is rippled, not smooth like the one shown on the ebay link. the sunchaser tools guy is the inventor of this disc. that is whay no one else sells the rippled one. I can only speak of the sunchaser disc and video as I have never used the smooth one.

I learned more about metalworking from that video and using the shrinking disc than I ever imagined. the video is long and boring. you will not get through it in one sitting without dozing off, but the information is great. the thinking behind the disc is the heat is concentrated only on the high spots, so when you quench it, it shrinks the high spot only.

another thing you want to get is "the art of metal bumping" ... I'm pretty sure that's what they call it... eastwood sells it, among other car/tool people. it is a little red book from the 40's showing how to move metal back to where it is supposed to be. good stuff. and cheap too.

I have a pick hammer but never use the pick end...

oh..one more thing.. if you don't have quality hammers and dollies you will be handicapped as far as metal bumping goes. get the good stuff if you haven't already

 

... I never grind steel to fix a dent. thins it and heats it up. not good

 

When I'm metal finishing,I use a paint paddle and some 80 grit stuck to it.You can drag this across the metal to find your highs and lows.You can also "guidecoat" the metal with a light coat of lacquer primer.

 

the shrinking disc is not a grinder. it heat shrinks the high spots by friction and when you cool it with water or a rag it shrinks. its like heat shrinking with a torch but its more controlable and you are heating only every little high spot instead of heating one spot with a torch.

this link should work...
http://metalshapers.org/videos/Kelly_Shrinking_Disk.wmv

its of one of the makers of the smooth one in action. the smooth one also has a rolled lip on it for safety. the sunchaser one will cut you if you are not carefull.

John

 

The best thing is to trade in your pick hammer for a nice planishing hammer, Covell sells a nice one. Or a spring steel slapper, Kent White has them in 2 different weights. Or make your own!

 

I'm wondering if any of you guys have used both the rippled and the smooth shrinking disk and have a preference?

 

me and some of the guys at one of our metalmeets tested the difference. the sunchaser works faster but it can also shrink to fast and bring you to far. the new smooth design works a little slower which allows you to sneak up on the shrink and control the shrink a little easier. the sunchaser has a sharp serrated edge while the smooth one has a lip. its personal preference.

 

WHY???, Because I have ALL these guys helping me out and don't even live around me, but yet you are 3 minutes from my house and NEVER come over??? Fine, You'll probably hate me even more when I move back to Cali!!!

 

I use a metal file on a straight line air sander .The heat from filing will help shrink the metal and move it like a shrinking disc .
The key is to work your metal slow and let the file do the work. Keep tapping up the low spots and rework .
keep a good hold of the sander because it will put you on the ground if you hit a bad high spot.

 

Surprised no one mentioned a "bullseye" for picking out the really small low spots in the final stages of finishing the metal. It can be a great time saver if your not to good at aiming with the pick hammer.

 

I think I read on metalmeet that you can use a cheap stainless pot lid as a shrinking disc but never tried it. Has anyone tried it and had good luck? Im guessing it would do about the same thing as the regular disc.

 

Also, remember that hammering ON DOLLY is a stretching operation, but hammering OFF DOLLY is a shrinking operation. And the book mentioned exists in the Eastwood catalog for $14. It's called 'The Key to Metal Bumping' in there and it absolutely rules. It seems like the older the book, the better it is for actually REPAIRING the damage, as opposed to replacing it or covering it up...

 

The sunchaser disc does not work faster than a smooth disc. The sunchaser actually works better as it gets more flat with much use. The flat or low crowned discs work great right out of the box, last longer and are far less expensive.

You can make your own shrinking disc. The most versatile shrinking disc is a low crowned disc because it is fairly easy to make and cheap to buy. It will do panels the others will not.

You can make it from cold rolled steel or stainless.

Metal-finishing is easy if you take the time to practice and use the right tools.

A ballpeen hammer, a good hammer (or slapper) and dolly, and a shrinking disc will do wonders on dents in panels that you can reach both sides of.

That video on metalshapers of my flat disc is an old one where I was experimenting with how far you could go without doing much hammer and dolly work.

A simple dent repair tutorial which also shows how to make your own shrinking disc:

http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=9980121727059

An album with a little bit about hammers and dollies:

http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/communityalbums.cgi?action=openalbum&albumid=9980138836765

Don't let anyone tell you this stuff is too hard to learn. All it takes is a little bit of stubborness and a desire to experiment. You will learn a lot.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

"Throw out the rules and play with the tools."

 

Thanks John! I'm out there now practicing! Just came in to get a glass of water and "chech in" on here.
I had been to your site before (long time ago, I had asked about the discs here) and "skimmed" around but honestly just didn't "think/believe those discs were useable" but with all the support the fellow HAMB'ers have given on them, I will actuallly get one! and try it out. I put the fender down and am practicing on some other parts and will work on it when I get the disc ordered. Thanks again EVERYONE, ...Ken