Unreliable cars have been gm's bread and butter for more than Just a few decades.... The accountants that run the company have seen to that. And that's not going to change until gm changes from the long lasting policy of building planned obsolescence, ousts the idea that accountants decide how long the transmission and power window motors are going to last and commits to a whole new way of thinking. I don't ever think that's going to happen. Company Stock Holders are greedy and as long as the stock holders have your cash in their pockets, GM is, and will drag all of Detroit down with the fable that all North American cars are poor quality.... gm doesn't care about the car, the customer, Just the life span of the vehicle and how soon can we get the customer back in here to buy a new car or buy ridiculously over priced parts and service... $800 for a 4 foot piece of 18 gauge wire with a pigtail on it that is designed to easily break and is not repairable? $900 for a gas sending unit in an Impala?? $800 for a headlight?? come on, tell us another one. people=cash cows, the workers are being paid to much, the accountants want the tranny to fail sooner, the stock holders are happy. sorry if the truth hurts. .
Somebodies on the right track, sadly it's not gm. Foose is a high profile guy that only builds on gm cars because of the sponsors... He's head and heart is grounded in Ford, Flatheads, Ford power, Ford bodies. And he is a died in the wool Ford fanatic and that's probably based on the history of the company and the history of the cars. I would hope that Foose wouldn't sell out to a company that He doesn't support... But Boyd might just do it. . Funny, I always thought the standard of the world was the Model T and model A and Cadillac?? It's always been the fastest depreciating car as well as the line that would nickel and dime you into a new depression. -If any gm cars ever were the standard of the world, we would all be building, hot rodding and driving ... 32 deuce cadillacs 40 Flathead chevy coupes 36 pontiac roadsters 34 olds cabriolet's 31 gmc roadster pick up. hmmmm... maybe it's just my eyesight but I haven't seen any "Standard of the world" 32 duece cadillacs around here. I'm sorry, I can't agree with any part of gm -as a long lasting Or high quality standard of anything except hipe and advertising. .
Evidently you didn't even read what was said. This is not about what polled markets suggest because there are many more ideas that are suggested that do not make it out of the think take sessions. It has to fit the business plan of the company. Next, I don't have to prove it because it is written in economic books so if you truly want to know then take a hike to Barnes & Noble and have a look for yourself. Now even if you did not want to believe me then (and that is OK) I suggest you think about this. Why are auto manufacturers offering discounts for "return buyers"? Why are grocery store chains giving discounts with the little loyalty cards and steering clear of giving loss-leader advertising discounts. It is because we are taught that you go after proven sales. Metalshapes openly admitted he had not purchased a new vehicle from GM in 30 or so years --and that is perfectly acceptable IMO-- however GM and their marketing program are not going to rely on his "possible purchase". Matter of fact, I'll even take it one step further. Do you think if all the members of HAMB (31,763??) could agree on what the ultimate car design would be, ...and GM tooled up and manufactured it, ...and then ALL 31,763 +/- members purchased one brand new, ...do you think this is what would save GM and put it in the "black" financially?? While I cannot prove it, my guess would be NO. Too much in-efficiency. Go re-read what manyolcars wrote in post #74. Then go read the book I suggested by Jeff Liker where he tells how he was a former GM management employee who saw GM was on a dead-end road. At least he was smart enough to look around and see why another US automaker was quickly overtaking GM so he became a student of their practices.
You absolutely hit the nail on the head. Our disinterest is mutual... And since you are posting on a Board for Trad Hot Rods & Customs, it shouldnt surprise you to find at least one guy lamenting that things aren't the way they used to be.
Actually the designers at G.M. are quite talented and cutting edge. I was at the G.M. Design Center employee open house earlier this year and saw what the designers had on thier tables! It was all jaw dropping stuff. I don't know where things change, probably the upper manegement level, but if G.M would only produce some of the concepts I saw there they would take the lead back from Toyota. I would have really liked to have seen what they had under the covers but they said they'd have to kill me if they showed me. I asked the guy that invited us to the open house why they weren't building some of this great stuff...he said " that's a good question"
I got a news flash guys... GM could make the coolest friggin' cars in the world and they'd still be in trouble. It's not them - it's US. WE buy the Jap cars - WE chose the cheapest - WE pick the bang-for-buck over the "cool" car - WE are letting them pour their product into our borders and not making them reciprocate It's not that they don't pay their workers well - the average Jap worker makes a decent wage (not the fact in China - but then China isn't holding all of the market share - yet). It IS the fact that all of the profit goes to the top of the hierarchy in the US. It IS the fact that the average Jap executive doesn't pull NEAR what the American equivalent would. It IS the fact that even thought we SAY that if they built a Camaro SS 396 we'd buy two of them - and when they make them - we buy a minivan or an SUV....... ...from Japan.
sorry to say it..Im a died in the wool true chevy guy..and i havent seen anything that GM has bult in the past 10 to 15 years that even looks like i would want to own it. Besides my 02 silverado..the recent truck looks like shit now too..what GM needs is one thing An EYE for STYLE! period! chrysler is beating the pants off of ford and gm because they will take some risk in design..and some of their designs are cool..GM's designs lately suck! that it ..nothing more to say than would you buy some pumpkin seed looking car or one with some agressive styling and stance? there in-lies the GM & Ford issue on why they cant sell anything.
oh and pushing their vendors to sell them parts for half of what they are worth and going to the low bidder and getting what they are paying for...CRAP!
and we have to government and unions to thank for it all. They have created such an adversarial relationship between management and employees that now we are seeing the results. Wait until they fix the health care crisis they created. I'm a died in the wool bowtie guy too, but I look awefully hard before I buy vehicles today
GM and Ford have both forgotten who put them in the market..the suppliers..now most of the suppliers are pushed to the point of bankrupcy and they are buying parts from china and Tie-one-on. the auto companies dont build a car anymore..they are just part assemblers now. and too many of the parts dont come from the US any more
If it weren't for the union - the workers would have to work ridulously hard for peanuts.....I worked in a non union factory for almost six years - I've seen how they treat their employees first hand. On the other hand - some unions tend to clog up proper workflow with stupid union policies that allow the workers to be - to put it frankly - lazy and non productive. There needs to be s middle ground. I am not in a union, but I work at a company that does have a bargaining unit. I can honestly say that the union is letting those guys make a good wage for their hard work and because of that wage they put themselves into their work 110%. But then again we are in the mid-west and people have morals and understand the give and get interplay. Most of the union guys I work with understand that the union isn't something that you lean on to get more for less. We have the ideal situation really - both sides are able to look across the table and see where the other side is coming from. I really doubt it's like that at Detroit. My brother went to Detroit as a fiber optics intaller (non-union) and they were constantly going through red tape and jumping through ridiculous hoops because of the existing union establishment. basically whenever they were forced to work with any unionized workers - they'd lay down and drag their feet at every turn....and LEAN on their union for EVERYTHING. I can't see the two coming together in Detroit. When GM folds up we're all in trouble. And mark my words - they will. What's going to do it you ask. The Toyota Tundra and other Jap trucks (Honda - whateverthefuck). Again MARK MY WORDS. The only market leverage GM/Ford/Dodge have is the truck market share. And every time you see a dude buying a Tundra - you are seeing another nail being driven into the American coffin. And that's not a joke - I don't care if they are being built in America - Wal-Mart used to be "made-in-America" proud too - and look what they are doing to our economy. But I don't want to get into Wal-Mart bashing here...I could go on for HOURS on that..... Bottom line: BUY AMERICAN!!! For gods sake - if youwant your kids to have a future BUY AMERICAN!!!! I know the product is inferior - I know it's more expensive - but if you don't do it who will? The Japanese? HA!!! American economics requires a system of reciprocity. You help Americans by buying American product - then those Americans can spend money at our establishments and so the circulation of money stimulates more income, more jobs and ultimately a better economy. I don't mean we should never buy a Japanese (or European or ....) product - but don't be a dumn sheep and just buy according to the price tag. If you expect your children to have a place to work - you better support business that employs AMERICANS. Or help them get their resumes ready and send them on a ship to China where they can work for $.18 an hour with the rest of the Chinese workers, which is where Wal-Mart gets all of their product. Well - Okay not ALL of their product......yet. BUY AMERICAN!!!!!
So do I. $25.00 an hour. I put in 6% into my retirement account and the company puts 9%. 12 hour days but only 14 days a month. I can't complain. I had to work Monday (Labor Day). I made $635. Plus I got 8 hours pay last Friday (floating holiday) and I didn't even work.
Maybe ...and maybe not!! Wal-Mart is probably the biggest detriment to our society and economy!! They have probably single-handedly caused the downturn of our nation for two or three reasons. They invented the concept of "cheap". This effectively drove out the locally owned hardware and department stores which left the US manufacturer with no place to market their products. Therefore they laid off employees making decent wages and eventually closed their doors. This left people scrambling to find a job. Then Wal-Mart succeded in driving the employee wages down to the point where no one can afford anything but "cheap". Naturally they cannot aford healthcare. Matter of fact, Wal-Mart promotes the use of government subsidies to their employees so we as tax payers help fund that cost. I could go on but suffice it to say that Wal-Mart's mentality has NOT been good for society. Matter of fact, the ironic thing about all of this is that in almost every town that Wal-Mart has opened a store in, it has been noted that they have put that town's economy into a recession. Think about that for a moment!! That means school systems are experiencing tremendous financial funding problems and education is becoming 2nd rate in many of our schools compared to other nations. Without a skill, --or without a decent place to work, the work ethic has deteriorated too. It was bound to happen. Kinda like "don't spend any money or do any maintenance on your car and eventually it will break down". Then what are you gonna do? While I am not an advocate of the Unions, they did help many people continue a lifestyle that was probably due every working class US citizen ---however the "checks & balances" (i.e.: promises) got skewed too far and Corporate America just cannot afford to compete on that level and continue to stay in business. Oh, and a thought about your "heath care crisis" comment. What would happen in Congress passed a resolution where it was unlawful for an employer to pay for an employee's health care? Make it where everyone had to buy their own health care. Would that drive the price of heath care up --or down?
Okay now we're talking.... Do America a favor and NEVER shop at Wal-Mart. And I mean that. They have ruined mom-n-pop stores and thusly put more people out of work than any corporation in history. At the same time they continue to underpay and overwork their employees - who BTW can't afford health insurance - and cause more families to go on government aid then (again) ANY corporation in history. Also they support HUNDREDS of sweatshop factories from overseas - forcing others (competitors) to look for similar product - and costing not only jobs in the US but also by creating povery internationally. And I feel sorry for the Chinese working man.... So in short - by NOT shopping at Wal-Mart you are BUYING AMERICAN.
I have to disagree with that. Our town has opened its second Wal-Mart, and our economy is booming. Branch banks are opening up all over town, subdivisions are being built as fast as they can build them, and in the last six years, three new schools have been built. Whether or not a local economy is doing well has very little to do with having a Wal-Mart. I know of a number of towns elsewhere in the state that have no Wal-Mart that are literally dying.
I can't comment on whether or not the math is correct on that comparison, but I do know that the "toxic wasteland" is a myth. Sudbury, Ontario, home of Inco, where the nickel used in Prius batteries is manufactured, did have problems with acid rain in the 80's. Acid rain was a big issue between the US and Canada at the time, but initiatives were undertaken and Sudbury has been significantly cleaned up since then. When the article says that NASA tested moon rovers there, they are referring to the slag heaps near the mine.
To Brent - in - 10: to make the consumer (patient) ultimately be soley responsible for his/her own health care decisions is the only way to fix the health care crisis. As it is now, generally speaking, the user of the service (the patient) does not "pay" the bulk of the bill - a third party does (the insurance company). The employer buys the product (insurance policy) and gives it to the employee, but does not use the product he buys, so is not responsible for it. the minute the patient is responsible and leaves the third party out of it, the problem is fixed. The proof? Compare dental fees to comparable medical fees. Dentistry works (at least better than medicine)
Lets not forget product loyality. I remember walking onto a Chevy lot with my Dad and listening to the salesman spout off the numbers and options from memory, and all the while compareing them to Ford and Dodge. Thus making a case as to why we should buy from him. Now the salesman don't know shit about the car he's selling. He's only interested in the sale. But the worst part is if you don't find a Chevy there your interested in, he will turn you towards the Toyota, Kia, Buick, Pontiac,etc. etc. that he also sells there on the same lot. I think they should have the attitude "we sell Chevrolet becouse nothing else is worth your money" Secound I think is priceing, A new car or truck worth more than I spent on my house? No way And thirdly, the problem is us. We let it happen in so many ways, buying Jap shit, letting prices get out of hand, and expecting to much from our jobs and goverment.
I don't know either so all I can do is go off of the "scientific" studies that have been done by different entities like U of Cal and etc. Maybe in your town you have some other industry that is feeding your economy or maybe you all are just lucky. It is hard to say in that regard but statistics show a nation-wide pattern or a trend with Wal-Mart having an adverse affect. Do some searches and see if what I say is not correct. I would if I could but they have driven all of the hardware & grocery stores out of business in my town, --and are working on eliminating the gas stations too. They are almost always at least 1 penny cheaper on their gas than the lowest priced station in town is, ...and 4 cents cheaper when the customer uses a Wal-Mart card. Tough to compete against that huh?? I think you are 'spot on'. Generally a person does not privelously waste something when he is paying for that item themselves. Also, this opens the door to force more competitive rates because a "good deal" is not a 'good deal' if no one can afford it. Talk about thread hi-jacking at it's finest!! Other thoughts anyone???
BobbyA312 back in post #10 really was the first to get close. GM's problem is it's legacy costs. The payouts to defined benefits programs from the 50's and 60's (pensions and health care coverage to retirees) are crushing it. This is a carrying cost that simply cannot be undone. The generous benefits that made GM such a great employer for many years are literally dragging it down and killing it now. I'm sorry to spoil anyones feelings of nationalism and victimization, but Wal-mart, the Japanese, outsourcing, global warming, or any other factor of today have nothing to do with it.
If it was posted earlier during this thread, pardon me I missed it. However, from some of the posts I have read, there have been various opinions expressed on how best GM, and Ford and Chrysler for that matter produce what the public wants. Consider, who really pulls the strings at the large conglomerates? Is it the CEO's? Nope..Is it the numerous upper level management making the decisions? Nope. Most likely it is many of you, and use to be me included when I was employed and investing in my 401 plan. It is the investors who drive what is produced, no matter what product. In this case vehicles. Buy low, sell high, produce cheap and make the investor money in the process. The CEO's, board members, answer to their investors, and as a result, we read how much the CEO's get for making those corporate decisions. What amazed me when I've read some of the stock holder reports is, the amount of money a CEO makes, is really peanuts compared to the gross amount the company takes in. Let me compare it a bit to the salaries a high profile football coach makes in a year vs the income the school receives from ticket sales, playoff money. The coach either produces or he's out. The school is in it to make money. A CEO and the board does what the share holders want or they're out. The same is true with Wally World and their cheap imports from China. Why? Wally world makes money with the cheap, and if Wally World makes a profit, that profit gets divied up with the investors. While it's true, a large portion of the cost involved of producing a widget is labor, we can also thank our wonderful ambulance chasers for the increase cost of liability insurance. How would you like to be a doctor in todays world and pay their liability insurance premium? Now this leads me back to my original premis, and that is, it is the stock holders who drive the train, and even get to toot the whisle from time to time. I learned, after I rolled over my 401 into an IRA and directly invested in various companies. When the annual report comes out, and there is an election of officers, I do get to vote on who stays and who goes. If I don't see my stock making money, I have two choices, either vote for new blood, or sell. Either way, then they listen. So, are the major players giving us the product we want? Hell no. They're giving the stock holders what they want. Their "Old Skool" thinking is just what Ole Henry Ford did with the Model T. Give them any color they want, as long as it's black. It's cheaper to make that way!!! Now folks, I'm a born in the U.S.A, and I'm proud of that. But I have to tell you, sometimes the other side of the fence does look pretty good to me. Take for instance the older Toyota Land Cruiser. Built like a brick shit house. A whole lot tougher than the Jeep that was produced during that time. No I didn't buy one. All I'm saying is sometimes there are products other than what we produce here in the good ole U.S.A. that are pretty damn good. (I do like to buy woolen products from Scotland and England) What can you and I do about all of this? How can we have an impact of what is offered to us? Simple, we use our wallet. We shop for a product that is well made, has style, has customer support. Don't like Chinese made? Then don't buy it. Don't like dealing with customer service with someone on the other end of the phone in India or Pakistan? Then don't deal with them. We as the masses, really don't have to settle for what ever is just plain offered. We can speak with our wallets. Trust me, They'll listen. Just my opinion. And that's like an ass hole, everyone has one!!!!! HellRaiser
I don't care much for Wal-Mart either but just they likely pay more than any of the mom and pop stores they are supposed to have put out of business. It isn't like these people had wonderful benefits and lost them because of Wal-Mart. A dept store job other than perhaps management was never meant to be a well paying, benefit enriched job.
heres what they need to do..sell it to their employees..see how fast it hits the skids or makes a buck! and screw the investors out of it entirely!
The Jalopy Journal
