OK,, let's say you have two flattys, an 8BA and a 59AB. Let's assume both engines are stock bore with no cracks. Now, ya want to run the center outlet heads and a front mount distributer from the 59AB, but you'd also like to use the insert bearing rods and crank from the 8BA. Which way would you go??? Is one block prefered over the other? Which way would be easier or more 'economical' (for a flatty )??? Do the rods and crank from the 8BA's provide better service life/lubrication??? Is it a DIRECT drop in????........or........what about throwing the 59AB heads/intake/timing cover on the 8BA block???? I have two 59's and 2 8BA's. I prefer the look of the 59 motor. Just more symmetrical to me. I will be tearing down each one and using the best parts. Any help greatly appreciated!!!! Thanks fellas.....
I used the 59AB block, but used the 8BA cranks and rods in my 41's engine. I love 59AB's, 8BA's to me are not as good looking, plus seem to crack more than the earlier ones. The 8BA rods are little stouter, however. The main reason I did this was because the 8BA engine I had was a fresh rebuild, then cracked, so I swapped all the new good parts (bearings, pistons, ect) into the 59AB block. It took a little "doctoring", but works well. You can used the 59AB parts to make an 8BA look like a 59AB, you gotts run a 59AB cam, and do some plugging of some water passages. My brother just did this in his 40 pickup, pretty simple. Whatever you do give me a shout and I can tell you eveything you have to do.
Many of us flathead fanatics like the looks of the 59A over the 8BA. I think it's the center water outlets on the heads ( like you said, "more symmetrical") - I know that's what does it for me! That said, I plan to use 8BA heads on my 8BA block to take advantage of the keystone water passages in the rear of the 8BA's block (I want every cooling advantage I can get!). However, MANY have run 59A heads on 8BA's for MANY years with no problems. Just have to plug a water passage in the block on each side. The 8BA is a little more "modern" with it's insert bearings, one piece valve guides, and valves. You can run the early distributor ( I'm using a '47/'48 style with a '42 "crab" cap and rotor along with an early cam and gears plus the 59A pumps that Speedway sells and a 59A double sheave pulley and generator) which I think is a better unit than the 8BA one. I had a 59A in a '47 Merc 1/2 ton back in the day and loved the total look of it! I've read a ton of info on flatties in the last eight years and the engine I'm building is what I feel will work for the best me - portions of both engines. Hope this helps! Regards, Dave.
On the road the later 8BA distributer position is A LOT easier to deal with if you're gonna stay with breaker points. Also the oil fill is easier to access on the 8BA especially in a hooded car like my `41. I think I'd run the early heads on the late block to get the best of both worlds. Just have to plug a coolant passage and create a system to clamp the dizzy in place because the early heads have no provion for this of course. I have this exact combo lying in wait on my shop floor. Remember the late blocks are not set up for "chatter" rods but a person could fab something up if that became necessary.
I have a 8ba in my 40 frame and am tripoding the mounts, rubber up front and just the rubber ring on the trans, the trans mount is solid mount to the frame....Should work...Roach.
As most have said - you have quite a few options. If you're going to run the earlier cam/distributor setup, then make sure you run the early timing and crank gears. The thrust is different between 32 - 48 and 49 - 53. The earlier gears thrust the cam toward the block, while the later gears thrust the cam toward the timing cover. Honestly, I can see no rear reason to thrust the cam toward the timing cover -- even in the late models, but that is the way Henry made them. Also - if you're going to run the early water pumps on the later block (which is the style I like to use with the center water outlet heads ), then make sure they are the modern sealed bearing units - as the original water pumps used a sintered bronze bushing - which required a small amount of oil that dripped from the early block. If you run new/modern 59A style pumps, then the oil is not needed. Some say that due to slight changes in the valve angles in the different years, that you should run cams that were ground for the specific years. While the technical differences are true, my guess is that very few cam grinders actually grind a 39-48 cam any different than a 49 - 53. Would be an interesting question to pose to some grinders ?
Thanks guys! Concerning crank thrust.....so to run an 8BA crank in a 59A, I just need to use the 59A crank gear on the 8BA crank, correct???? Not too concerned about the oil fill of the 8BA as I have an early 2x2 that I'll be using. Chris: I'll be contacting ya once I get deeper into these....I'd like to know what "doctoring" was needed..... What block I decide to use will obviously come down to the one with the least amount of cracks.....one of the 8BA's so far has a crack from head bolt hole to water passage.....
You are really limited on hipo old distributors on the 59's though i just recut a black cap mallory dual pt from SB chev to fit an 8ba
"Some say that due to slight changes in the valve angles in the different years, that you should run cams that were ground for the specific years. While the technical differences are true, my guess is that very few cam grinders actually grind a 39-48 cam any different than a 49 - 53. Would be an interesting question to pose to some grinders ?" I'm not 100% but I think the angle difference was straighten out by '46. Later 59AB's '46 (yes, that would be military)-'53 should be the same. I know Delta Cams asked me that question & ground it for the later angle. I think it is 100 degrees vs. 101.5 degrees. Glad to hear that you are going with the only engine that matters. Not 100% sure so don't listen to me and disregard this post.
He is right. Very few mags were made for the 59 AB series motors. The cheapest is the Lucas (try finding replacement parts). The most identifiable mag is the world famous H&C mag that goes for around $2K restored. Other rarer mags like Poudens and Wico conversions are also getting over $2K for nice ones ready to run. Norm Frick is doing cool things that will allow you to run differnt mags as well. Might want to contact him. Now the good news... You can run a 8BA cam in a 59AB block so you can buy a cheaper side mount Vertex/Ronco/ Joe Hunt, etc. If you have a lathe you can do a SBC mag & turn it down & convert the shaft to make it work. Or guys sell a snout that you can blot onto the 59 series cam that will also allow you to use a side mount dizzy. If you use the 8BA cam, you will need to swap the timing and crank gear to get the dizzy to spin the right way. Unless you are racing, a MSD dizzy will be a better choice for a street rig. Ahhh, ain't hot rodding fun?
Not really good news for me.....as I will be running a front mount dizzy no matter what. Even if I gotta run a Mallory or stock....... I've seen H&C mags at swaps for $400-700....but still more than I got...haha! Thanks for the info Banjo.
Last year I was workin on a guys '35 ford. It had a 59 engine in it, so of course bought some offy heads, longstud kit, mallory crab, just spent his money. Of course the original studs weren't gonna come out, and the first one snapped... It was a rush job so I decided to swap engines from my RPU, an 8ba style. (used bolts) this engine turned into this engine after plugging obvious water holes (tapped and filled with bolt), and using the thinner ford bellhousing, Just had to come up with this.(the green thing) The only bummer was buying the newer style mallory distributor cause they wouldn't return it. Since it was in a '35 and I get to tune it up, I like the 8ba distributor way better. I've put the 59 in my '40, and it is alot easier to get at since the hood opens up. Regardless to check points it is easier to take it out. *point on the 59 though - If you have the heads off, make a mark on the pulley at TDC. There is no stock mark so using a timing light is impossible until you do that. good luck, TP
Zibo: Great advise and I like your dizzy hold down. Another thought is that you need to use 8BA water pumps in order to clear the side mount dizzy.
Why do people do this the hard way when you can buy a cover to hold the distributor in place or modify the one you have with a crush collar. Like this set up. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/4576,280_Flathead-Timing-Covers.html
Well....that cover is $150....and what Zibo did was make his own part, probably was faster than ordering the part and much cheaper.....part of the fun of hot roddin' is makin' your own parts and not buying everything new........I dig it....
thanks guys! the other thing is that speedway deal uses an allen wrench with your hand way over there by the belt/pulley. Just not as convenient as the original method. If you make the green bracket style, make sure you add some steel to keep the bracket from compressing toward the block. (underneath) (basically measure the heighth of the mount on an original 8ba head and match it.) travis aka zibo
Thought I'd make a little correction --- the angle of the crank/cam gears is reversed between the 32-48 versus the 49-53 crank and timing gears. Regardless of the angle, the crank and cam will still rotate the same direction as before. Therefore, you can run either set of gears and the distributor will turn the correct direction - the only difference is whether the cam is thrust toward the block - or away from it. The crank already has thrust surfaces on it's main bearings - so it isn't going to be moving . . . it is the cam that wants to "walk" out of the block toward the timing cover on 49-53 cams. This is another reason why I would always run the thrust toward the block on a flathead roller cam ( obviously a race cam ) - as we want the cam staying in the block and not trying to push itself through the cam cover. My best guess as to why they switched the thrust in 49-53 is that they wanted the distributor drive gear to be positioned/controlled via the timing cover - which would help insure that the distributor drive gear is correctly and consistently meshed with the cam (keeping timing constant). Given my "guess" - if you're running a 59AB style cam and timing cover, then I'd run the 59AB style crank and cam gears. In this case, if you use the 49-53 gears, then the timing gear will actually rub on the early 59AB timing cover (and it has no thrust surface like the 49-53 cam and timing cover combination). I've pondered drilling a very small "oil hole" in the front oil galley plug - to provide better oil lubrication to the cam/block thrust surface and gears . . . will probably try this in my next roller cam setup. Anybody have any input on the cam thrust issue . . . maybe somebody knows more details or facts on this? Dale
One important aspect that is overlooked here is the choice of transmission you want to use. Since the 59ab block has the bell cast with the block and the 8ba uses a separate bell housing, one can see that choices must be made. I'm having a 51 Merc machined as we speak and I am going to use a Mallory Magneto from sbc. Another consideration could possibly be the intake manifold. If your using a multi-pot set up than no big deal but if you want something differant like me, than get an aluminum intake from a Canadian Mercury and modify it for a larger Rochester 2-barrel from early 70's 350sbc and push it with a McCulloch supercharger. I didn't see a single McCulloch at the Pileup.......I was hoping to see one. I guess I'll be unique when I get my roadster on the road. Multi pot intakes look really cool but also becoming cliche'. IMO.
Thanks so far guys! Dale, so the crank gears are interchangable then? Good deal.....as I'd really like to use the 8BA crank/rods in a 59 block. I began disassembling one of the 59AB's and so far it looks good....still STD. Some of the head studs are very tight....may need a little heat. Mushmouth pointed out trans selection.....I'd like to run a Ford toploader 4-speed or a T-5.
Interchangeable as a set - in other words, you need the 8BA crank AND cam gears OR the 59A crank & cam gears. As long as they're both the same style, then, yes, you can interchange them. Check the tech archives: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169265 All the T5 info you probably care to read. On the toploader 4-speed, consider finding the shift tower from a Jeep T176 4-speed & turn the Ford toploader into a true toploader with the shifter right out the top!
Dale: Now that you say it, you are right. Thank you for the correction. Trans talk: For a 4 speed, if can kick up a stamped steel full bell housing from a '49-'53 car, you can adapt a Ford 4 speed top loader. T-5 involves a little more work but the O/D should be worth it. I decided to go this route as well.
Thanks Ernie.....that's what I was leaning towards.... I think I'll run the 59 block with the BA crank/rods.
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