Sorry, I'm afraid not. The oxidation found on aluminum is not formed by the same electrochemical process that causes steel to rust. That means that the electrolysis process can not be used to de-oxidize aluminum. In addition the aluminum could be adversely affected by the alkaline solution used. Darren
Ive tried the electrolosys thing and it works great! Ive tried using a battery charger, but what woked best for me was my Lincoln WELDER set to DC and its lowest amperage setting. I used it on the Dash out of my '52 chevy, put it in painted and all, after about an hour, I pulled it out and wire brushed the paint off, let it soak another hour or two, and it looks like fresh metal. After removing all the rust I just pickel it with some ospho and it looks great!! I ll try to post some pics.
As a qualified Biochemist, who started working with my father in industrial chemical treatment and non-invasive component renovation when I was 14 years old, I'd say you were LUCKY to get good results with the vinegar on anything more than very light surface oxidation only. The scientific name for vinegar is ACETIC ACID, and you are recommending to newbies to "acid dip" their parts.....and RINSING in water DOES NOT EQUATE to NEUTRALIZING the parts....especially with more porous cast iron parts like spindles. Having said that....when the old timer at my local hotrod shop put my door handle and window crank mechanisms in an old bathtub full of 'some horsey-type stuff' for a few weeks, I was GOBSMACKED at the quality of the results....the 'stuff' was molasses! for any of these treatments........GENTLE is good, SLOW is gentle! just my rapidly devaluing 2 yen
you will NEVER get the Acetic Acid (vinegar) out of body seams or sheetmetal folds and corners The Electrolysis is MUCH safer
I AM a Chemistry major.......you could do it in theory, but you would need to keep removing the parts to take away the gunk layer that was evolving on the surface.........just use "Aircraft stripper"
Don't get me wrong, If it worked for you - Fantastic Im just saying that when some Noob tries it on thin delicate sheetmetal or die cast trim full of seams and crevices, disaster may ensue....and we'll all be ready to laugh at him how long ago did you do them??? how long have you been driving on them?
I am NO chemistry major,BUT I know what works and I will keep using it, because it works good for small parts that will fit in a bucket. I would not dip a door or something like that in it, because like you said it would be impossible to get the acid out of the seams. I put rusty shock mounts and stuff like that in the bucket, you know parts that have no "seams". And you stated that it would only work on stuff with light rust, Find you something that has heavy rusting and try it one day even a chemisty major might be surprised.
Ok........Chem 101 1) you are using electric current to speed up the process of producing an acid solution to "reduce" (de-oxidise) the Ferric Oxide (rust) into a non-active form,which is the black shit you wirebrush off afterwards. 2) anything you do to speed up the process (electric current/heat/stronger acid) makes it more aggressive on the host PART as well as the rust, and effects the POROSITY of the host metal 3) the deeper you send IN the acid, the longer the acid will SEEP OUT of the pores and seams and crevices of your freshly painted parts. 4) these factors ALSO effect the structure of the elecrtically charged molecules that make up the metals......thats why chromed suspension stuff later turns brittle if not correctly heat treated! (are you hearing me Spindle man?????) 5) the fastest way to make any chemical reaction move forward is to TAKE AWAY the end product (ie the black deactivated rust), or add more starting reactant. this shows how leaving the lid on the bucket of vinegar stopped the Produced gas from escaping, which massively slowed the reaction, AND that actually, you CANNOT just keep re-using the vinegar over and over....hence, you were LUCKY that your techniques coincidentally slowed down your reaction enough to save your parts from being eaten CONCLUSION: Molasses is GENTLE and SLOW and ONLY effects the OUTERMOST surface........SO USE IT for your unknown iron based metal mixes. Aluminium is even MORE POROUS......so even more important to traet ONLY the outer surface.....USE the Aircraft Stripper.....Aircraft are made from Aluminium!
As I said, I started professionally chemically derusting industrial parts of every description when I was 14 years old, with ALL kinds of complications (foodgrade/money printing/chemical processes/strict outer diameter tolerances/SUPER thin heat exchanger plates/ etc) the job done by the chemicals MAY NOT be finished when you put the parts back on your car! How long ago did you do them? How long have you been driving on them????
So I fill the bath tub up with vinager, get in holding my model a steering column, and drop in my toaster? Does any one have any pics before and after? Sounds interesting.
I'm trying to get my electrolytic bath to work, so I contacted a chemical engineer and he said the rubbermaid tub bath may be too big and my water not conductive enough to go from the anodes to the part... it's a 20 gal. tub with 4 - 1" sq. tubes around the outside wired together, battery charger set on 6a 12v. The part is flat sheet metal about 10" x 18", so it's about 8" - 9" away from the anodes on both sides. I read on another site that if you wrap your part in PLASTIC window screen, you can pretty much lay it on top or against of the anode without fear of shorting... Stay tuned, I'll have a report tonight.
We used a 4 foot by 4 foot by 3 foot high plastic vat to do my inner fenders and many other parts on my Merc. I ended up using a heavy duty battery charger to handle the current. I covered the bottom with wire mesh grills and the like all welded together. Then i placed a piece of 1/4" plastic with lots of 1" holesin it over the grills in case the parts slipped off their hangers. (An early try had that happen and the short ruined a good DC power supply.) I suspended the parts off of a beam across the top of the vat using copper wires and close hangers. Worked great. Had to turn them from time to time to get all surface areas. Like I said before, tho, I didn't get the inner fenders clean enough after the bath and the primer they are in now is flaking off. The solution dried into the pores of the metal. Primer re-activated it. It works and it saves your metal. CLEAN it repeatedly when done. Several cycles of rinse and dry. Trust me, after one or two riinsing it looks clean, but it ain't. Glenn
Couldn't one use a metal mesh or fine BBQ Grill grate on the bottom of the container as one of the electrodes? Seems you could place some of those plastic honeycomb looking things that sometimes cover fluorescent light fixtures (a diffuser) on top of it and fill it with fluid. This would allow you to alligator clip the other wire to the individual part(s) and simply place them on the bottom on top of the plastic, making it feel like a one-wire operation. The BBQ Grill grate would be the other wire, directly below the plastic. Or would that idea take up too much juice? ~Jason
I never got it to work, I might have shorted the battery charger out, it hummed, but I never got a reading on the amp meter, even when I added (a little at a time) laundry powder, and dissolved it, trying to get it conductive. I returned the charger to habor freight and bought a bigger one, maybe I'll try again later. I did find molasses, at a horse feed store, and will be setting up a bath for my inner fender supports, Hopefully they will be good by new years.
I've read that you need to have a battery inline between the tub and the charger. I guess it acts as a buffer, keeping the juice constant. ~Jason
Abomination: You do not need to use a battery. The Stainless grill you suggest is great, but remember, the process will eat it up. The Plastic grill looks perfect. Regular laundry soap WILL NOT work. It does not contain the addative needed to make the electrolysis work. We used Arm and Hammer Laundry Powder: http://www.thelaundrybasket.com/Our...nt/our_products_Powder_Laundry_Detergent.html Glenn
Go down to Walmart and buy some "PH Plus". It is in the pool area. It is 100% sodium carbonate, just like A&H; only $5-6 for 5 lbs. You can use sodium hydroxide (lye) crystals as well. It helps to soften/slough paint in the process, kind of rough on the hands, though. I don't know why, but some in this thread have been babbling about the solution for this process being an acid. I'm no chemistry major, but even I know lye is a base.
You DO NOT want to use stainless for the electrodes. The chromium will leach out in the electrolosis process producing a hexavalent chromium in your solution which is extremely bad for you: http://www.osha.gov/OshDoc/data_General_Facts/hexavalent_chromium.pdf I use rebar from Home Depot. Amperage draw depends on two things: the solution concentration and surface area of the part & electrode. More surface area = higher amperage draw = faster de-rusting. Look here for a some good before and after pictures: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/s...d.php?t=184264
I've used vinegar for years to derust smaller parts. I 've done several sets of brake drums and various other parts such as hood hinges and brackets. One thing I always do is wash the part real well in hot water and dawn dishwashing detergent(which is what I use to clean a lot of parts) after soaking in the vinegar. It took several days to get brake drums clean but in the end they looked like fresh castings. The smell is terrible and had to skim rust off the top of the vinegar a few times but it works. After washing, dry with compressed air and I usually leave in the sun for awhile before painting. Hot parts dry fast! I usually use the walmart brand rust preventative paint on small parts. No problems so far. Bob
OK, I changed the anode to a 2" wide piece of sheet metal folded to "line" the inside of the tub, then I got some heavy duty plastic window screen (meant espcially for dogs who scratch screen doors), and layed it on top the sheet metal. Then I can lay just about anything I want on top of it, and it's only about a 32nd of an inch away from the anode. with 20 gallons of water, I put the new charger on quick start, and it went to a bubblin and making the water disgusting in a hurry, taking the rust with it. Light surface rust on sheet metal took about 20 minues to turn to black and brush off..
Pic up my tub... crusty wheel last night... Nice wheel by 7 pm tonight. '49 Ford passenger car 16" wheel (5 on 4.5")
I'm having trouble too. Using Arm and Hammer Washing Soda, rebar, etc. The two chargers I've tried hum but no amps on the gauge. Is there a safety feature on the charger? No sparking when I "test" it by touching the clamps together. Is the solution mixed wrong? More washing soda? Do I need a 12V battery in the circuit? Any help greatly appreciated.
y??Blmh5557;2523357]I'm having trouble too. Using Arm and Hammer Washing Soda, rebar, etc. The two chargers I've tried hum but no amps on the gauge. Is there a safety feature on the charger? No sparking when I "test" it by touching the clamps together. Is the solution mixed wrong? More washing soda? Do I need a 12V battery in the circuit? Any help greatly appreciated.[/QUOTE] If you touch the two leads on a battery charger together you sure better get sparks, just like arcing across the poles on a battery. Make sure you're getting good contact on you rusty part and on your anode(s). Sand or wire brush to get a clean shiny spot to hook your charger to. Make sure your (+) and (-) are properly connected. I use a 12 amp charger and like to see about a 6-amp pull, but 3 amps is sufficient. I don't try to do it in 20 minutes, I let it soak overnight. I've done wire wheels, sheet metal, motorcycle frames and forks. Yes, it will loosen paint, but that's not the primary purpose. http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp Soda ash is an alkaline, not an acid http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_Carbonate Do not put chrome in your electrolysis tank - highly toxic. Otherwise you can dump your used solution anywhere the wife won't see it. Clean solution works better/faster than nasty, gunky, I haven't dumped my barrel in a year solution. One you get your solution right you don't have to add soda, just add water when it evaporates. An alternative to electrolysis is phosphoric acid (same thing that's in naval jelly and coca cola). It's also used in parkerizing. Buy it at Home Depot in the paint department. gary
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