How's that glue? Elmer's or something a lil finer? Intake and exhaust were only the same on the 55 and 56 engines. Every year after that they changed. DeSoto has the plan stan. DO NOT try and mod anything later model.......it's a waste of time and money. I know, I've beaten down this path a LOT. Saved myself the time and energy when I realized it's just simpler to stick with what I knew would work.
The rocker ratio is the same 1.5 as the later ones, But due to the valve angle the tip of the valve gets closer to the stud. Hence the distance from the STUD to the valve TIP is shorter, Hence the rocker arm is shorter. Im tellin Ya, No matter what people say, I know a lil about a few things & i been down this road. Hunt up a stock rocker for an early head & measure it against one of yer later ones.
Brandy, when are we gonna kidnap Ragdoll and run away to a land far, far away? I'll even bring my engines and rearends and parts stash *wink* I love all the info in this thread, gonna help a lot with building my '59 389...
That makes no sense, if the rocker arm is shorter the ratio has to be different, valve angle has no bearing on rocker ratio directly, only if it requires a longer or shorter rocker...if the distance from stud to tip is different, the ratio must be different, no?
I'll tell ya what, I'll go measure rocker studs, valves, WHATEVER you want off an earlier engine and you later guys do the same..........then we'll unzip our pants and compare the apples to the oranges. Lets go! I know where Ragdoll lives.
I just thought of something, if the rocker is shorter on both sides of the stud, then the ratio remains the same...and once the '31 is done doll you'll be the first one kidnapped...hehehe
This is a great thread. I have quite a bit of experience with the later engines, but appreciate the information about the earlier ones. It is good to have this much information in one place. Thanks for starting this axle!
O.K. To All you guys that wanna try & over think this... And to Groucho cus i know he is just tryin to learn sumpthin (no offence G). The bottom line is ... Early heads have a Different valve angle Early heads have shorter Rocker arms Early heads have smaller & thru stud oiling Early heads have 1.5 ratio rockers LATE STUFF WILL NOT INTERCHANGE !! Now for all the rocket scientist that dont believe me, Do your own research or buy an early engine and figure it out the same way i did. As a current owner of 2 early Pontiac engines & a previous owner of several Late Pontiac's I have had the chance to experiance many of the differences in them.
"De SOTO" You really have me stumped on this one and have my friends scratchin their heads. Could you elaborate with specifics instead of generalities? Could you draw something or post pictures of the questioned area's? I would sincerely like to learn more about this. When my brother and i built a hot rod for the first time ( The PPE in its first configuration) we were given an engine/trans combo from this old guy. The engine sat for decades , and it was a 1956 316 block with 1959 389 heads, and hooked up behind it was a B & M 4 speed hydro. We put that combo in that car and it ran excellent for 2 years. We drove that car to the first & second CHRR as well as one of the March Meets. The car NEVER ran hot , the oiling system was stock, and never missed a beat. I am not aware of how bolting a head to a block can can spill into the pan if indeed that is what you are talking about? Maybe you are talking about something leaking into the valley,then on the cam and down to the pan? If there is a mismatch, I do not see why you cannot tap and plug the hole. Also, always remember to tap and plug the 2 oil gallies in the deck of the block, one each side if not using the stud oiling as the early engines do. Not a big deal at all. If there are some water jacket issue's i can't see it being that severe or unfixable. My wife's 1960 Bonneville has its original 60 425A engine and someone (Don't know why) put 57 heads on it a very long time ago. I drove that car home 40 miles . It wasn't a long haul but it was long enough to run fine. "Craig Hendrickson and Kern Osterstock ( founders of H-O racing) in '72 built a 9,000 rpm '56 316 with Ram Air Iv heads on it. Tell them it was "impossible". Later heads on an early block combos have much potential to this day" That above statement came from Steve Barcack of Pontiac Heaven. Take care,
I can visualize what he's saying about valve angle and the rockers not interchanging, but I would like to try the head swap myself...
All the blocks cast through model year 1964 included cylinder head rocker stud oiling passages. No engines after 1964 utilized the stud-oiled heads, so these passages were eliminated in 1965. While <ST1Pontiac engine was cutting it close enough with the large-valve heads that scallops were cut into the tops of the bores to clear the 2.11-inch/1.77-inch valves. Flow would also be restricted due to valve shrouding with the small bores of the early engines as well.<O A change in the timing cover would also require a change to the balancer and water pump. Early engines, 1958 and older, have the motor mount at the timing cover. Later engines have the side motor mounts. 1964 and newer engines are cast with block-mounted starters even though most cars still carried the starter on the bell housing. 1967 and later heads had a different valve angle than earlier engines so piston to valve clearances must be carefully checked when swapping heads around.<O Pete McCarthy's book should be considered must reading when tackling swaps like these. Plus, with all the new aftermarket Pontiac parts now available including aluminum heads, blocks, intakes, cranks and so on, making a lot of serious Pontiac horsepower is easier than ever. In fact, you don't even need a single factory part anymore to make a<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comPontiacs</st1:City> do have the advantage of lots of engine parts interchangeability, using the later large valve heads on the small-bore early engines would result in possible valve-to-block interference. Even the 350 <st1:City w:st=" /><st1:City w:st="on"> Pontiac</st1:City> engine. <O Jim Hand's book should also be considered a must have when playing with <st1:City w:st="on"><ST1Pontiac</ST1lace</st1:City> engines. He runs an 11-second <st1:City w:st="on">Pontiac</st1:City> wagon out of the <st1:City w:st="on">Kansas City</st1:City> area and has been doing a lot of research into making<st1:City w:st="on"> Pontiacs</ST1lace</st1:City> very, very fast for a long time.<O</O
OK. here is the deal..... I am sure MOST anything can be done to anything, But the head swapping deal isnt a bolt on swap. Just went thru this with a Friend who has a '59 389 in a model A panel truck, He had a set of done heads of the '57 347 that was in the truck.. Bolted them on, Filled the radiator & the Oil pan at the same time. Compared the 347 & 389 head gaskets & found that each had different water passeges for the head & block.. NOT A BOLT ON INNERCHANGE !! Also the bore size on the early blocks is smaller & there is no way the head gaskets will intercange. NOW.... AS FOR THE ROCKERS. Go out in the garage, grab a known early rocker and compare it to a later rocker.... Better yet, try and put a 400 rocker on an early head. THEY WONT WORK ! The rocker tip will be approx 1/2 of the stem diameter to long or to short depending on early/late rocker or head mis match. LASTLY, No one here has to believe a fuckin thing i say.... Try it your self and see what happens. I only know what i know from EXPERIANCE, actually trying stuff at home.. Not reading what guys did 40 years ago.... People did all kinds of crazy Bitchen shit back then to make stuff work. There are always exceptions to the rule, ya never know what was done at year splits at the factory...
Man, I'd sure think the big valves in those heads would hit the small bore of that early motor. If not, they'd be so shrouded, that flow would be horrible
Jesus... Puleys on a pontiac are almost ALWAYS an issue unless you are starting out with an original set up...why? Pontiac (knowing they would drive me to baldness) liked to change pulley type with virtually every arrangement-a/c or non, p/s or non,a couple water pumps (mid 60's change, and late 60's change) and car to car-for example, g.t.o. had it's own pulley set. firebird had it's own pulley set, and "big car" had it's own pulley set. I have 4 5 gallon buckets full of various pulleys and brackets-all poncho. here's where it gets fun-with verrrry little visible difference. They all look "about the same" with the exception of firebird (which was known to put the alternator on the "wrong" side of the motor from time to time) the placement of brackets and accessories was the same-alt. over p/s on drivers side, a/c on passenger (most of the time) with a single bracket that requires the patience of Job to get to know on the drivers side. add to this mess the long/short waterpump scenario, and they can be a nightmare- especially when dealing with aftermarket timing covers (like the kauffamn, which is trick) and the fact that alot of guys forget the steel anti-cavitation plates, and presto! everything is off by exactly the amount needed to create hellish belt squeal. so yeah...if you find yourself buying a pontiac motor, ask if ALL the pulleys and brackets come with it. Your hairline depends on it.
Do any of you guys know if a screw in stud was made for early heads with thru oil passage?If so,who might have them.
The 316 has a 3-15/16th bore, with an .060 overbore it then has the same bore as a 389. Not huge, but still in the range of the effective range of a good design.
Back then the trick was to pin the studs by drilling a hole in the boss. Still works. A machine shop should be able to do it cheap.
Right click and save!!...Great info Axle (and everyone else i should say..) and 'Thanks' for sharing. How was your Thanksgiving holmes??...Talk to you soon...
Mr. Gasket sold them years ago, but not any more. However, there's a seller on Ebay out of NJ by the name of oldspeedtees that sells old speed shop inventory, and I've seen him list sets of them a few times.
Okay, here's a question...there's a bellhousing in the Speedway catalog, pg. 156, for chev,olds,pontiac and buick '58 and later to mount GM gearboxes, anyone used one? I need to find a transmission solution for my '59 389 since I can't afford a hydramatic...
Wont fit, Trans pattern is different on the '59 389 than the standard BOP & Chevy. You need the correct Pontiac or GMC Bellhousing. What are you putting the 389 in ?
I thought it meant '58-present patterns which would fit the '59, and it has the starter mount pockets...did they mean '58 and older patterns?
I just looked at the Speedway cat at the only bell housing they show for GM. You will have to call them & double check, I have never seen any one lately making a Bell that will bolt to a '55~'60 Pontiac due to the fact they were Pontiac only... They didnt interchange with Olds or Buick in '58 as they state. As far as i know, Buick & Olds didnt interchange either, Only Olds & Cadillac shared bell housing but the was Earlier, Like '49~'55 Could be sumpthin new & would be REALLY cool, But i think you will find the cat is mis~leading
I'll call them tomorrow, it looks too good to be true...btw, the 389 will replace the '76 400 in my '31 Plymouth once I get the 389 built and find a trans, in the meantime the 400/TH350 will do...
Suppose it's made to bolt up in place of the hydra-matic on the factory iron adapter? The trans bolt pattern is the same for Olds, Caddy and Pontiac, but each uses a short bellhousing to bolt that to the motor itself. If it does, it will have a smaller, U-shaped pattern opening down. As I previously posted, the pattern on the back of the 58-up Buick block may be the same. I covered the various motor mounts in a post on the first or second page of the thread. It probably should be noted there is very little clearance on 55-57 cars between the steering, master cylinder and the motor - the stock manifold exits to the front because of this. So there is a lot to consider besides just mounts when running a 61-up block (which doesn't have the holes for a front mount) in a 55-57 car.
Most Pontiacs will rip one to pieces in no short order, but it might live behind a 326 or smaller version. Input shaft length is probably an issue with most bellhousings, might bolt to the 55-57 bell using the same adapter for the early 235 Chevy car bell.
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