I've seen a few cars with the steering arms/spindles flipped so the tie rod is infront of the axle. Does it really matter? Or does the ackerman effect come into play on this one? Anybody running this setup gimmy some insight.
Yes, the ackerman will be screwed up and you have to heat and bend the spindle arms outward to correct this. The outside tire will turn more that the insde tire will shorten your turning radius...
Also, if you hit anything with that tie rod your wheels will instantly be pointed inwards. That being said I have several Chevys that are built that way from the factory. But the tie rod is up high and parked with the center crossmember right behind it. I assume they designed the Akerman into it, because they work fine.
Some interesting info on Ackerman. http://images.google.com/imgres?img...q=ackerman+steering&gbv=2&svnum=10&hl=en&sa=G
This shows up on a lot of "T" buckets. It is WRONG!! Even if you get the Ackerman right you still have the tie rod as a front bumper.
Too me it looks like an afterthought on the builders part......yuckkkkk not to mention going through front tires like no other. If you try to push a car by hand then turn the wheel, it's as though someone is standing on the brakes because the front end just wants to plow.
It's not wrong. It may not be attractive. I would think that would depend on the application. Generally speaking, ackerman is used to put the inner wheel on a tighter radius than the outer wheel in any given turn. The degree to which it does so is dependent on the track width, steering arm lenghth and angle, wheel base and other alignment settings, such as toe angle. Making one behave in a nice manner isn't hard, but like most suspension tuning, it is a compromise in the real world. The most dangerous aspect is the potential for dynamic toe in in a hign speed turn that could make a car unpredictable in a curve. That is a low risk, however, if you stick with fairly typical geometry. In a nut shell, if you choose your steering arm length and angles as you would for a rear steer and then mirror them to the front, you'll be in the ball park. A little measuring in the driveway should help confirm the results. Remember, front steer cars have been produced for decades and ackerman is about reducing tire scrub and turning resistance at low speed. No one answer will apply to two different chassis designs.
Lines drawn from the rear axle centerline through steering arms (tie rod end centers) and king pin axis' will establish proper ackerman close enough regardless of the tie rod being in front of or behind the axle centerline. Just remember, if you run it in front, the traditional police will get you.
My T Bucket has the Tie rod out front but i made my steering arms myself so the ackermann is correct, It handles fine at speed and steers nice, People are saying its wrong but i cannot see why ???
I've been shopping the classifieds for a hot rod and I've seen a few that I liked until I saw the backwards Ackerman. That tells me that the builder was either lazy or careless or not well-versed in basic automotive engineering principals. No sale !!
Just want to throw this out there. I teach highschool auto shop and we just swaped the spindles on a Model a to see the difference in tow out on turns. We put the car on our alignment machine and only lost 2 degrees from 4 to 2. The tow never went negative. The other teacher was a Steering and Suspension trainer for Ford and said that it would be well within spec. Believe what you want. If you get a chance look at a new car with the steering in front of the wheel centerline and see if ackerman applies. You will be surprised.
Some will say it's easier to set up a front steer. They'reprobably right. In my case, I like a clean front end on my cars. It takes a little more engineering but it's not that hard for any rodder to do that's worth his weight in lug nuts. Youngster
I know from experience that tie rod in front works extremely well for short wheel base at high speed. I see a lot of so-called traditional cars with much uglier features than a tie rod in front. Hot Rodding has NO rules. ENJOY!!!
I don't see anything wrong with it looks wise or design wise...as long as its engineered to work correctly in that position. MANY 4x4 solid axle trucks have front tierods and marginal Ackerman, but they do have enough to work correctly. BAD GAS...I'm not getting your meaning on the 4 to 2 thing. Are you thinking that Ackerman is controlling the toe in toe out measurement itself as the car sits? It can't. The solid tierod controls that alignment setting...but measuring from straight ahead to full lock in either direction will show toe out to increase, relative to the two tires positioning, with proper Ackerman...while improper setting will show toe in. I believe once you get to a toe IN situation, relative to the tires in a corner, then your too far out of wack to call it good enough and something needs attention. The point is, I think, that you LOST some degrees where a rear mounted factory setup would have GAINED...and you need to add both the gain and the loss together to get a true number to describe the difference. Can you get away with it? Maybe... Is it ideal? Most likely not...but what is? Can it be argued till Hell freezes over and STILL have no clear and absolute answer? OHHHHH YES!!!! LoL THATS why it keeps popping up!!!
AMEN !!! AMEN !!! Great answer , most have never used it both ways but BELIEVE (or were told) its incorrect!!! Good answer ! Tons of vehicles have used the front steer for years. Nascar uses front steer on short tracks and rear steer on the super speedways .
Do you really want your tie-rod to be the first thing a piece of debris contacts while doing highway speeds? That's far more of a concern than the Ackerman issue. Its a matter of how much risk you are comfortable with. On a drag strip, I don't see risk like as if you are driving down the highway.
Do you really think that's of any concern to people who would be re-grading the pavement with their no-scrub clearance car's frames and sheet metal if they get a flat? Suicide front ends didn't get their name just for fun. And as far as hitting road debris.. Can't be any more dangerous that ridin' a bike, and people do that too. Id just bend the arms out till they almost hit the backing plates if that's the only way to set it up
My car has this set up. The Ackerman is way off when tire are turned hard.I have no problem at high speed and don`t wear tires. I can wip in and out of traffic with no problems. Yes it is wrong but the only way to fix it is to cut the front off the car and change everthing.When I rebuilt the car back in 2000 I though long and hard about it and for what problems I have with it it does just fine for me.Only time I notice it is when I cut hard on parking lots or on dirts.So I fix that problem by not turning hard!!
If you think the tie rod is ugly, dress it up a little. My car has gone pretty fast with no ill efect
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