I'm thinking about getting a small lathe and have noticed that there are some called "engine" lathes, where others are called "tool" lathes or just plain metal lathes. Can someone give me a quick primer on the difference, and what can be done on one that can't be done on another? Thanks!
I am pretty sure that they are just different names for the same thing. Make sure that the lathe you get has an acme thread to pull the compound rest along for doing thread cutting operations. Other than that, there are very few different options in manual metal cutting lathes other than the choice between 3 jaw chucks for holding round parts and 4 jaw chucks for holding irregular shapes.
When I was an apprentice back in the 70's I ran what everybody called the "engine lathe" it was the only one of the approx. twenty or so lathes we had in our department. Although to this day I still don't know what defines an "engine lathe".About the only difference I can remember is it was one of the older lathes, it was very long, it had a low slung head stock also it had two crossfeeds.
I think . . . one of my problems . . . an engine lathe is a common lathe, usually belt driven. A 'tool' lathe is actually a ToolRoom lathe used by die-makers as well as many other disciplines requiring utmost accuracy. Far as I know the ToolRoom lathes are gear driven.
C9---I think the term "engine lathe" was originally used to distinguish a metal cutting lathe with thread cutting capability from a wood lathe. I have seen many small metal toolroom lathes that had a gear drive in the headframe, and the gears were on sliders similar to a car transmission. Changing the ge****ts in the headframe determined the speed at which the lead screw turned to allow you to make different pitch threads when thread cutting---and the whole gear train would be driven by a flat or V'ed belt powered by an electric motor.
After reading the intro to a machine shop cl***room text on lathes from 50 years ago, I'd say they are just different terms that describe the same thing....pretty much any normal size metal lathe that you find today will be an engine lathe, suitable for toolroom use. A turret lathe is a different thing, so watch out for them....probably not what you want for general turning work.
They are basically the same thing, but the tool room would/ should be more accurate. Metal turning could be almost anything including a turret lathe. Most engine lathes are equipped with a 3 jaw chuck although I have a collet closer on mine. The old ones that used a flat belt on step pulleys were called a cone drive. If it has a gear drive then it is a called geared head. most lathes that use V belts are called belt drive or driven. More trivia, small production/turret lathes are/were called hand screw machines
Also the type with "shifting" for the feed is called a quick change gear lathe, as opposed to the standard change gear lathe which requires that you take off and replace the gears.
Lathes are usually being of two types: metal cutting or wood turning. Metal cutting lathes can be further sub-divided as engine lathes or turret lathes. A turret lathe has.....a turret! The turret handles multiple tool set-ups for multiple operations in one chucking. Usually used for a production set-up. May even be a dedicated machine, such as those found in automotive manufacturing and making millions of the same or similar parts, year after year. An engine lathe is usually set up for one operation per chucking and easily changed over to other parts of completely different geometry fairly quickly. Probably has a taper attachment and change gears or quick-change arrangement and is capable of cutting threads. A tool room lathe is normally defined as an engine lathe that's made to finer tolerances and is capable of holding closer tolerances, such as found in a tool & die shop or tool room. At least that's how the South Bend material I have, breaks it down.
as others said, a toolroom lathe is gonna be more accurate, also generally a smaller machine. the big difference is the price tag. it gets spendy in a hurry when accuracy increases.
Along with Turret lathes you'll also want to avoid anything with "Chucker", "Second Op", or "Speed Lathe" in the name. They are specialized machines that will not do a garage hobby guy much good (unless you have one op you need to do several thousand times ). Hardinge makes a very nice small swing lathe (though they get a little spendy on Ebay, you can sometimes snag them worth the money elsewhere), as does South Bend, and Logan. By small I mean swings in the range of 9"-12". In the larger swings (12"-18"), there are a great many good US builders who's used machines can be found in many places, and some good imported options as well, both new and used. If you decide to go with an import, I suggest buying new, and staying in the upper part of the price range, there really is a difference there. Used American iron is hard to gauge by rule of thumb, so you'll need a pal with experience to go over every prospect with a fine toothed comb. Make sure you consider parts availability as well. If you use the machine much to speak of, you will eventually need to replace something (be it broken or worn out), and some machines are orphans in the truest sense of the word. Good luck with your search, it took me the better part of three years to finally find myself a lathe I could be happy with.
There's a bunch of lathes out there being called "tool room" that are just small lathes, but retain the accuracy of a larger/normal lathe. These were used for small tasks in the tool room, and were not large enough for any normal production. There was/is an even smaller sect called "hobby", I have one marketed by Sear's as a Chraftsman, it has a small swing, like only around 4", tool room lathes are more like 7" or so. Thinking these smaller lathes are more accurate is a misnomer! Normal lathes are called on for great consistency, and do produce it for decades of use when properly maintained. Look for wear on the ways, the ground surface that the carriage travels left and right and also where the cross-slide goes fore and aft (there's also another on the compound). These surfaces will show damage from misuse, which happens when grit gets under/between the ground parts instead of nice clean oil. Best to p*** on one with visible scoring, as they will not be precise and are expensive to re-machine.
They way I was taught is that a Honest to Goodness "toolroom" lathe was HIGHER precision and had NO thread cutting ability. I think the Marketing muddied the waters when they started to advertise any small lathe as being "toolroom" quality and eventually just started to call any small lathe a toolroom lathe. Nowadays - you really don't see the term used to distinguish between the two - so anyone advertising a small lathe is likely to call it a "toolroom" lathe. Bottom line - IMHO when shopping for a lathe - you want: Quickchange gears (a MUST IMHO - though I am sure soem will argue this) Variable Speed - It's not so much that you HAVE to have variable speed - but the era of variable speed generally puts the lathe into a LATER manufactured timeframe - which generally means it was designed to take full advantage of carbide tooling - you need RPMs to efficently use carbide - an old lathe only capable of 1,000 or so RPM's is gonna struggle with your likely small sized parts if you wanna run carbide - and eventually you will want the option. Lots of guys swear by those little 9" Southbends (and history has clearly proven they are good machines) - but after running slightly bigger/newer machines - you can keep them 9" SBs. IMHO - look for soemthing with a minimum of 12" throw - tooling is expensive so finding a mahine that's well outfitted is a HUGE benefit - but the MOST important feature is the condition of the ways. It's mighty tough (and silly) to struggle with ****py ways - makes no sense to make the job any harder than it has to be.
Craftsman's 12" x 36" Commercial fwiw, does what I want most times. I find I use only two speeds for turning, one for mild steel and cast iron and the other for aluminum (one step faster). Selected via two sets of adjacent sheaves on a 4 sheave pulley. For real slow stuff like threading I just put in the back gears on whatever speed it happens to be set at. Not a problem for the 12" & under swing lathes, but the larger ones can be driven fast enough in some cases to blow the chuck up due to excess RPM much like an auto flywheel. HemiRambler's right on the quick-change gear set. Try to buy a lathe with a set installed. If you can buy them later they are very expensive. Twenty years ago, the quick change for a Craftsman/Atlas was $600. That said, you can do a lot with a manual change lathe. Make sure you get the gears so you can swap feed speeds. If the price is right you can still do a lot of car hobbyist stuff with a lathe missing the accessory gears. And if it comes to it you can make the missing gears on the lathe. Tooling is expensive. Most times privately sold lathes come with a 3 jaw & 4 jaw chuck, face plate, tool holder, a center to fit headstock & tailstock - the tailstock center should be 'live', but you can make do with a 'dead' one. A toolholder is usually there too. Don't be worried if some stuff is missing, it makes for a good whining point when bargaining. A steady rest is a nice extra, but many times the lathe will come with one. You can do milling in the lathe with a milling vise for that particular lathe. Lathe accessories that are nice to have and seldom if ever used are a taper turning attachment and a follower rest. You can turn most tapers you'll be involved with by using the tailstock set off center. That and a piece of chalk will do it. The follower rest is the first accessory I bought and I've never used it in the 22 years I've had it. (Used to turn long small diameter shafts down.) As an example, if you spent $1200. for a nice lathe in the 12" throw range it's easy to spend another $1200. on accessories required to run it. Install the lathe on a good solid mount and don't use the lathe as a structural piece. Saw that one, a stand at each end and the stresses were on the lathe bed. All a lathe bed is used for is to attach the end pieces and guide the carriage. Learn to shim the lathe level. Like many tools, get one and you'll wonder how you ever got along without it.
Spend some time on the Practical Machinist board at http://www.practicalmachinist.com) and decide just what features you need on a lathe and what size lathe would suit your purposes. Great bunch of very knowledgable people who are glad to answer questions (most of the time, without the "use the search" bull ****, too !!). I spend most of my time there, on the South Bend Lathe forum, since I have a 13" SBL, but they'll answer questions about most any type of lathe. Another thought to consider, is the diameter of the hold thru the headstock. I sold a very nice Atlas because it would only accommodate a 3/4" bar, which limited my usage of it. My 13" has a 1-1/2" hole which is much better for my needs.
Another thing to consider is the first thing to go at machinery auctions, and most times for premium price, is anything you can fit into your garage shop space.
3/4"? Mine is 13/16" Which, granted, ain't much of an improvement. Always wondered why the Atlas/Craftsman didn't have a 1" + headstock bore. Thanks for the SB site address.
Another point to pick apart; early lathes had babbitt bearings with oil cups, later and far superior machine had real bearings, and they were lubricated by the oil in the gear box. This is one extreme to the other, as I'm sure there were transitional models. The point being, the later lathes will hold tolerances closer and are capable of higher RPM's, and easier to live with if you ask me.
Definitely buy a new lathe, preferably made in China, and save all the ****py old worn out south bends for guys who like a cheap, useful machine that looks right in their shop full of old cars and junk.
Just to clarify my origional post - by "newer" lathe I am referring to those made with the speeds that are Carbide friendly -they probably started making those in the 70's. I'm not suggesting for a second that anything OLDER than that isn't any good, but like everything - there are compromises. I would also like to clarify that by "newer" I had absolutely NO INTENTION of suggesting a NEW Sum Flung Dung machine - most of them are junk IMHO. YMMV Hard to turn a BIG part in a small machine - much easier to turn a SMALL part in a big machine. As a result I would get the biggest machine that is practical for you to have. I'd suggest 12" x 36" as a nice size. Easy enough to transport in a 1/2 ton pickup and can be unloaded/moved around the shop with a "normal" cherry picker. What ever you do - do yourself a BIG favor and get a lathe - even a "crummy" one will serve you well - a heap better than using the drill press in "vertical lathe" mode.
hey dont' worry HemiRambler, I was just having fun with some creative writing I did get your meaning the first time....and I agree that a nice 70s american medium sized lathe is probably the best way to get real work done.
I would not be afraid of a babbit bearing lathe in good condition. If there is no discernible play in the headstock, there shouldn't be any problems. If there is, it may be able to be adjusted out. Same deal with the roller bearing lathes. The Craftsman/Atlas 12" commercial requires a 1/16th of a turn past the no-play point on the headstock. Check the manual to be sure on your lathe.
Hey Squirrel - no sweat - I just didn't want to mislead anyone. I've found out over time that what I'd REALLY want is one HUGE lathe (big enough for driveshafts) and a smallish 12" machine (variable speed). I just found myself (this fall) needing to cut down some wrist pins. I drug out some HHS cutters - the wrist pin simply laughed at those. It was sorts like trying to cut sheet metal with plastic scissors. Carbide and some Speed were my friends. The really good thing about a BIG machiene is that they often go for squat!!! As they get tougher to move the price often goes down accordingly. I wish I had a HUGE building - I'd fill that ****er with machines!!! The other thing I've noticed - is that over time I find myself attmepting things I never would have drempt about once before. Experience IS a wonderful thing. Not suggesting I have alot of experience - but over time I have picked up a wee little. I STRONGLY suggest that anyone even REMOTELY contemplating getting a lathe - to get off their duff and DO IT!!! You will find a whole new world opening up to you. Best darned money I ever spent!!!! Just spend it wisely. If you're gonna spend it on a small lathe - those darn 9" South Bends hold their value like gold - it'd be REAL easy to learn the basics on one and then trade up later if you felt limited. IMHO
I'd like to second this notion. Those SB9's are like real estate, everybody wants them, and they ain't making them anymore. Be prepared to spend a little money, but know it will come back when/if you decide to sell it. I also second the thought about one very large lathe and one smaller more precise machine. This is my ultimate goal as well. I recently upgraded from a 12" Logan to a new 16" import (yes, yes, I know, but find me a new lathe that is actually US made for less than $40k before you crew my ***). I am very happy with the bigger machine, and hope in the next few years to eventually score a Monarch 10EE toolroom lathe for tiny precise work. I will have one eventually, oh yes, I will have one. . . . . . Keep your eyes peeled, there were a great many small lathe makers that put out excellent machines 30-40 yrs ago. I suggest having a look at this website: http://www.lathes.co.uk/ He has a buyer's guide there with some rudimentary inspections to do, and a listing of nearly every lathe brand and model ever made, with pictures and specs to help you figure out what you should be looking for. Very useful place to spend some time if you're going to go used iron hunting.
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