I am suprised nobody is re-poping OEM spec iron flathead blocks. The French blocks were used up until not that long ago in the French Army. Surely those molds are tucked away someplace and someone could get them and start making blocks. Ford's original molds are probably out there someplace.
The complexity caused by the internal exhaust p***ages is probably still daunting. It requires a lot of core parts and a lot of anchoring...compare the cylinder area of a SBC with a flathead: Almost any modern cylinder row is essentially just an iron shoebox with a row of cylinders standing in it. Flathead requires an extra cavity within that cavity for the exhaust, and that in turn requires a great deal of precision because it comes clost to everything else. Actual valve area is also pretty complex. Obviously, it it could be done in 1932, it can be done now...even though we can't actually put a man on the Moon anymore, for what that's worth. Its just going to be a lot harder than making a modern block, and for a smaller market. I think a big factor in the new aluminum block was a desire to be able to sell engines on a commercial scale...right now, any determined individual can probably turn up a flathead to build, but the cores are probably too rare to support commercial scale crate engines. And the French...I'm pretty sure that Ford of France and its descendents never made a 3 3/16 bore flathead UNTIL the late army truck engines, in other words never when it was a current Ford product. We've discussed this before, without result, but I'm real su****ious: Ford Germany manufactured integral bell Merc engines from 1939 to about 1955, and the late ones had that odd rear drive--so I suspect someone in France bought recently retired German flathead casting and tooling stuff. I seriously doubt whether anyone would have started making these engines again without existing molds. It would have been absurdly expensive in a world with hundreds of readily available medium truck engine designs.
Just what would lead you to believe that the patterns and core boxes for a casting that went obselete 60 years ago would still exist? (Molds are made of sand and have a life of ONE casting. New ones are required for each new casting.)Think about all the trials and tribulations that Ford Motor Co has been through since 1953 (or whatever year they quit servicing those engines-1960?). They've fought off bankruptcy a half dozen times and s****ped countless generations of tooling since then. A remote chance might exist for the French stuff since, as I remember, those were built in the '80s. Who has even the remotest idea of where to research that possibility?
Who would have thought the original bucks for Model A sheet metal were still around, but I believe Brookville found some. Now I am positive Ford sold everything off. BUT...these engine were used in farm and utility industries for years after Ford stopped selling them in cars and trucks. I suspect that the stuff is out there someplace.
Why they are out there, i'm up to 7 blocks and i havent even been looking, most of which need easy crack fixes
One must remeber that much of the "obsolete" tooling went to South America after it's useful life here in the States. Could a parts gold mine be hidden south of the equater?
There is more than enough French NOS blocks around if you want a new block, it would not make financial sense even if the molds were available.
...And the devil is in the details in the bottom row! All of those little thingies have to be hung within the general jacket area with little contact with larger bits. Then they have to stay there as 200 odd pounds of molten iron flows over them. I believe that precise core placement and keeping cores in place were the main problems encountered in 1932. Hmmmm...that should be molds, not cores, I guess. I read that Ford production cores were of steel or iron, experimental/development molds were wooden. What the people making the new block for Ardun use did was to simply leave out the fiddly valve and port parts. I've seen pictures...don't know if that one is actually available yet.
Ford often had parts used for ***embly sourced from many companies. However, they often got their replacement parts from only one source. Here's an example. While Ford did stamp some of its own bodies, Briggs, Murray, Budd, Hayes Body Co., Midland Steel, and probably some others all made bodies for Ford in the early Thirties. However, it was primarily Briggs that supplied Ford with their sheet metal replacement panels for those cars during the late Thirties. [Edit: (I realized I didn't complete my thought here.) Since Briggs only supplied a few of the many different bodystyles to Ford...they had to get the other sheetmetal stamping tooling from somewhere. Surely they didn't make new tooling for this.] I believe that Ford often turned over their dies, molds, castings, etc. to the supplier that made the replacement parts...unless they were shipped to another country for use in making Ford products sold in those other countries. If I recall correctly, I have read that Ford sold most of its Model A engine molds, etc. to Russia (the country itself...not a company located there).
Bruce is correct. How many blocks do you think Ford had cast that had core shift issues. The cylinder walls were thick enough to "compensate" for slight shift, but they were only boring up to 3-3/16" diameter. Take that same core shift and bore 3-5/16" or even 3-3/8"; can you say "hello Mr. Water jacket!" Today's foundry processes are much improved over the last 75 years, but Ford was making hundreds of thousands of blocks as compared to todays low volume production runs. Ford could absorb the financial loss of the bad castings through economies of scale. Today the loss a few blocks to core shift could double or triple the cost of production. Couple that to the fact that there are still usable blocks available at a fraction of the cost of making new blocks. In 25 to 50 years it maybe feaseable to make new blocks, if the demand is there. A case in point would be the reintroduction of the Stromberg 97 carbs. A new 97 carb is pretty close to the cost of finding a usable core and having someone else rebuild and replate it. 15 years ago that was not the case. Dan Marvin, Owner Exeter Auto Supply
Bruce: You were right until the second paragraph. The production cores were baked sand and were themselves molded in a core box. The original PATTERNS were probably wood but the production patterns would have been steel since that had to be used over and over.
Notice also that this pile doesn't include other castings such as the heads, water pumps, exhaust manifolds, or intake manifolds. Can't even fathom the first pattern makers job of making the wooden patterns or the draftsmans task of drawing all the parts in at least 3 views with paper and pencil. There's no question Henry's people had a herculian (sp) task and did it well
I don't think that heap is even the whole block...I think the whatevers that form the whole outer wall aren't there. Looking at something familiar sorta inside out, seeing the voids rather than the iron, is visually strange, a real conceptual excercise.
If your into porting a FH, thoses ex./in. cores give you a real insite into what your working on. Great picture.
Wouldn't you like to get ahold of the set of cores and file a little caked sand off here and there and have Ford pour in the iron around your extra-thick port and cylinder walls??
I am trying to find an early 24 stud block and so far have found a bunch of boat anchors. Every one I find has a crack in the cylinder. My pistons are to big to sleeve so I just keep searching.
Bruce Lancaster..do you have difinitive proof that we really did put a man on the moon?..speculation has it that it was a political stunt, and they really cant prove that we were there..Hollwood? and if we did take a man to the moon why has it been that we havent done it over and over again? just a thought
I have captured do***entation...the "Moon" surface was sculpted from peanut ****er mixed with sawdust! If you blow the picture up, you can see the back door of the China Lake Officer's Club reflected in what's his name's face shield, complete with the sign advertising happy hour! The Saturn V rocket thing was actually a soybean silo with fins welded on...a hush-hush job allegedly done by Darryl Starbird on contract to NASA! They flew him in with his welder in a black helicopter! Stick with the HAMB; soon you'll know everything!
WARNING going O/T.....The answer is a telescope away. Any ametuer sky watcher should be able to see the remains of moon landings. I hear people bring this up from time to time and nobody ever says let's look at the moon and see. It's well do***ented where we landed.
ok sorry back on track..I wish too that the ol flatty's were re-poped..but i bet i couldnt afford one anyway so its ..wish in one hand,,... **** in the other and see what hand fills up first.
I think the cost of doing everything from R&D, equipment to pour the iron or paying a foundry to pour them as well as all the initial machining would be too much. I am wondering what the Aluminum blocks are going to cost once they atually release them. One of the reasons the OEMs can do it is that they build so many engines that it is a little more cost effective. One of the reasons Chevy can sell a SBC so cheap id that they will cast over 500,000 of them each year. I dont see there being the demand for that many flatheads every year to make the start up costs worth it.
Tatom has already built several of the aluminum block Flatheads, and he says the blocks cost $14K.Sounds like they are for the "wine and cheese"crowd for that price!
Timely topic, I was wondering what became of the aluminum block flathead project just last night. So what's the scoop on this, is it going to happen or not?
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