I'm needing a measurement. I asked yesterday for it, and had one person give me advice, and ONLY one person help out. (thanks Brianangus!) I am having clearance problems with my stock setup on my RPU. I'm wanting to start driving it, but don't want to install new tires if they are going to do the same thing as the old ones. I need to know the measurements between the inner wheel lips on front of an A axle that has '37 to '48 spindles, and disc brakes. I'm running '35 Ford straight wire spokes that are 5" wide. The measurement between my inner wheel lips is 55 3/8", and as a result, the outside of my 6.00x16s rub the fender bolt on the LF. Brianangus measured his little RPU yesterday for me, and he's running '40 spindles, and steelie wheels, but his measurement was 47 3/8", which is a full 8" difference. I think that is my problem, but I don't have anything to measure or compare to. Please let me know so I can figure this out. Thanks!
I dont think there is a magic number for what you are asking. Between all the axle variations, spindle combinations, brake combinations, frame designs, spring rates and loads, their really isn't an answer for what you are asking. It comes down to what you have built and what you need to correct to get everything working. Just like if you read Tardells and others build guides, they don't guarantee that every build will be the same. The information provided is just a guide and some fabrication and experience is needed on your behalf to overcome the problems that may occur. I had the same problem on my A. I run a bell 4" drop with 40 brakes and when I mounted my 600x16's on 35 wires, my front left rubbed the headlight bar bolts. I ended up cutting down the bolt and using a thin jam nut, also added back a spring to the pack to get enough clearence for daily driving and such. Mine was just too low for what I was doing.
Why is this so hard? I'm not asking for a magic number. Rather, I'm asking for numbers to compare with or to. The problem is that *I* didn't build this setup, but rather am trying to figure out the problem of what occurred 30+ years ago, and see if this is the problem. Yes, you had a similar problem, but you were running a 4" dropped axle, and your tire was rubbing on the inside of the fender up near the inside top. Check out my pictures and see what I'm talking about. I know I've got a camber issue, as it is 2.25 degrees positive, but that doesn't cause the tire to lay out 4" on this side. I'm asking for help. It seems like I'm drowning and for the most part, people are just describing the water.
Is there some sort of spacer between the hub and the wheel to get it to clear the disc setup? It looks like there might be. Sometimes on 35 wires this is necessary. If there is one then the width of the stock A axle, the hub spacer, and the much wider than stock tire is producing the results you are getting. It could be that having the axle dropped would pull the tire/wheel in far enough to clear the fender lip. Cheapest fix I suppose would be a slightly narrower tire.
It's not exactly a stock setup, as I guess I should clarify. Its an A spindle back that was cut off and welded to a modified Pinto spindle. Then there are "Wheel-A-Daps" spacers that change from the Pinto 4 lug pattern to the 35 wire patterns. This gives me an overall inner track from wheel to wheel of 55 3/8". I've got pictures of this truck before they started the modifications when it was previously in one piece back in the late '60s, and this problem didn't exist then.
See, I believe the above mentioned setup is the problem - mainly the modified spindle and the wheel-a-daps. I'm thinking that the later model '37-48 spindles and disc brake kit will solve the problem, but I don't want to drop the $$$$ on the setup if it doesn't solve the problem. Hence, my questions about width.
Even new spindles and disc brakes might not clear the 35 wires properly thus requiring another spacer which puts you right back where your are now or close to it at least. A way non-cheap fix would be new street rod wires from Rally America that will fit disc brake setups without spacers.
I understand this may not solve the problem, but I'm still trying to figure it out by asking for the measurements. Don't get me wrong, as I'm not trying to sound like a ***** with my responses, but I'm looking for measurements. Thing is, if the new setup narrows the track 2-3 total inches, then the problem has been solved. Unfortunately, the way this is sounding, I'm going to have to wait until my back gets better and I can finish building the axle that will be going under my Dubble A project. Then pull the wheels and tires off of my RPU and take my own measurements. I'm just trying to prioritize my projects, as I'm really wanting to get the one closest to drivable back on the road for a summer of cruising. And with my budget, if I've got to gather fundage to do the work, I've got to make my plans.
Measurements may be hard to come by since the setup you have is relatively rare. Gazillions of disc-braked dropped-axles out there but damn few with genny A axles for quite likely the very reasons you're having problems. Neither are there very many dropped-axle setups that run discs and early wires for the same interference reasons. Matching up 35 wires and discs is a pain in the **** no matter which way you go. It's gonna cost some bucks to fix this. My recommendation is 37-41 spindles and Wilson Welding drum brakes. Plenty of stopping power and no blasted spacers needed so your tire/fender interference problems should go away. If you're going to use the 35 wires then you're almost certainly going to have to run drum brakes which isn't really the liability it used to be with the advent of an aftermarket Bendix-style setup. Even if you were to go with a narrower dropped-axle you'd still need a hub spacer to get the wires out past the disc pieces. So unless you're just seriously in love with those discs then swapping to drums is the way to go.
Hey Rootie, thanks! That helps. That's a 1 3/16" narrower distance, which would equate to moving the entire system inboard about 3/4", which would come much closer to solving the problem I'm having. What about just pulling the axle, cutting 2-3" out of the center, and putting it all back together?
What does the other side look like? Does it have a ton of positve camber also? Does the right side tire rub the bolt? From the picture you have it sure looks to me if you fixed the camber problem the tire would'nt rub the bolt.
Hey Kris, Those tires are 30+ years old and spent about 10 years or more flat. The other side has 1 3/4 degrees of camber. I know they need to be straightened out, but I was reading the build book and it was something they were going to 'do later.' That was 32 years ago! My dad built the suspension and modified the motor and trans from a '74 Pinto to power this little A as his senior project in college. Some of the stuff is 'first timer crude' (his words) and could stand to be cleaned up a bit. However, there is about 3/4 to 1 inch greater clearance on the right side. The other thing is that I've been kicking around the idea of about a 2" drop to the axle. I don't want anything radical, but I think if I were able to move things inboard 2" on each side, then 2" would be a perfect drop.
is the frame square? is the axle centered? is the spring eye dimension symetrical? sagging spring, weak leaf? axle bent, twisted,alighned ? spring shackles at the same angle? wheels swapped side for side.. still the same? fenders measure the same..arc? ,pick a center dimension point and measure again. headlite hole, fender bracket mirror each other? all things that can be the problem of why one side is off all check out andits still the one side ? see above cures i wish i had a measurement to give ya all mine are stock brakes
I've been checking many of the measurements and things you've been mentioning PaperDog. Thanks for the advice though! I've been searching through the Tech posts, and came up with this one: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=168603&highlight=narrow+axle I'm thinking 3" narrower - and - just as luck would have it, I've got a brand new main leaf out of a speedway Mr. Roadster spring pack I'm not going to use.
I have never seen anyone run a stock A axle with disks and 35' wires, not that it cannot be done. Dropped, disks and steelies yes, done time and time again. The 35' wires requires spacer to be used with the disks, that is why guys usually shy away from using that combination, the look is also something not highly desired. Any solution you come up with is gonna cost something. Most likey you will need to put back on some stock spindles, hubs and buy a new Disk kit will get you where you need to be. Your father did the setup and he called it crude, sound like he would know the quality in which he did the work. If you narrow the axle arn't you modifying the setup only to perpetuate the error which is the modified spindles. The modified spindles and spacers are causing a wider track and also the camber issues. Just change the spindles and correct both problems at one shot. If your reasons to modify the axle is to keep the disk set up that you father built, that is noble of you but there are better and safer solutions than modifying the axle.
31 on 32 frame roadster. SuperBell 4" drop beam axle. Camaro Disc Brakes w/ 10 1/2" rotor. 50 1/2" between inside lip of 5" x 15" steel wheel with 3" backspace. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 32 Roadster. Superbell 4" drop tube axle. 68-70 Mustang Disc Brakes w/11" rotor. 52 1/4" between inside lip of 5 1/2" x 14" slot mag with 3" backspace. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Don't have the spring perch measurement right now, but springs are interchangeable between cars, axle perch spacing is the same and the 31 is running the Posies Slider front spring that was originally on the 32. The 32's running a Durant Mono-leaf fwiw. I wondering if your wheel backspacing is the same on both sides? Any chance your spring center bolt has sheared off and the spring has slid over a bit? Or . . . the spring center bolt head has popped out of the crossmember hole and slid over? My pals 29 roadster runs the same front end I have, Camaro Discs and 6" x 14" slot mags with 3" backspacing. Hard to see in this pic, but his wheels centered pretty good and he never had a rubbing problem far as I know. The front ends on all three cars are re-pro as noted and run aftermarket 37-41 spindles.
I understand the look isn't the most desirable, but it's mine. Most people will understand this, and realize it isn't a '****' type statement, but I'm no purist by a long shot. I understand I'm going to wind up spending something - that much is a given. I've been looking things over, and I'm noticing what looks like an 1.25-1.50" spacer - aka the wheel-a-dap - which modifies the 4 bolt pattern to fit the '35 wheels. This leaves about 1/4" space between the caliper and the wheel. Everything that has been done to this suspension setup from the kingpin out is what is causing my problems. This much we all know. However, I'm trying to sort out the issues and problems that are there, but trying to find out what the best route is going to be prior to just 'changing parts' - if that all makes sense. I'm currently researching options, trying to figure out how much difference in the track this'll all make BEFORE I start purchasing pieces and parts. I can't afford to spend a huge chunk of change to 'possibly' fix a problem, only to be back where I started. I know the '35 wires require a spacer to fit the later model discs and drums, but this is what I'm trying to find out as far as making a difference. Hopefully I'm not talking myself in circles and being less than clear. Basically, I'm broke, want to drive my RPU - safely, with the tires I've got on the shelf (6.50x16s), and solve this tire rubbing problem with the least amount of outlay as my budget will allow. I wouldn't be adverse to changing over to '40s hydraulic brakes, but would they work correctly with a '59 Chevy MC? Also, isn't there a disc kit out there now for Model A spindles? Yes, the backspacing is all the same. With just a 1/4" of spacing between the wheels and calipers, the spacers that are on it are just barely allowing the wheels to fit. I seriously doubt it. This little pickup has less than 6000 miles on it in the last 32 years, and shows no signs of movement laterally. I originally posted wondering if a panhard bar would/could/might solve the problem, but I'm thinking if I solved the camber issue, as well as hung a panhard bar on it as well, this might solve things. Like I said before, I don't want to just throw parts at it with the limited budget I've got, hence I'm asking questions of the experts.[/quote] C9, thanks for the pictures. They help out a ton. I wonder, though, exactly how much the 4" drop shortened the overall width of the axle? I know how to figure it out, but it'd take some geometry and the Pythagorean theorem to solve it. It looks like it'd narrow it up about 1-1.5", but again, that's just roughly a guess. Thing is, with this little pickup, I'm not really 'married' to any particular setup. There are some things I steadfastly refuse to change, but others I'm not so worried about. I want it to stop right, without worry, or thinking about it. And since I was taught that discs are superior to drums, that is what we've got here. If later spindles and drums will solve this problem, and perform and function as well as I expect them to, then I'd be willing to go that route. I love the wheels, and would rather not lose them. I do plan to paint them black and run WWWs (which I've already purchased) and drive the wheels off of it! As I said, this little RPU has had about 6000 miles on it since '74, and I want to put that much on it this summer! It's just a matter of making it all work. I was looking at narrowing the axle since I couldn't get a straight answer about what would or wouldn't solve the problem. From looking at the entire setup, I know that narrowing would solve it. I'd have to make a few more modifications, but the problems would be fixed, and I could just drive it as is. The bottom lines are: I want it right. I want to drive it. I want to solve this problem as easily and inexpensively as possible. Thanks for the help guys. It makes a huge difference in the direction of my thought processes here. I just hope it doesn't sound like I'm waffling back and forth about what I'm wanting to do.
You mentioned above that you might be willing to change to 40s brakes. What many on this board have done is to go with the Wilson Welding reproductions of 40s Lincoln Bendix-style brakes which perform head and shoulders above the typical "juice" brake conversions seen on so many vehicles down through the years. They have no shortage of stopping power and do not need a power booster. Not cheap to be sure but after one chases down all the parts and pieces needed to rebuild genuine early Ford hydraulics then the price differential won't seem so severe. Not that you NEED to do this but if you do then there's no reason to feel that you would be "stuck" with inferior brakes merely to **** those wheels in where they need to be. A 59 GMC MC ought to handle Wilson brakes just fine. By the way these brakes are sold now by a variety of outfits and not just direct from Wilson. All that said if you could get your rig to a big truck alignment center then they might be able to correct the excess camber on the driver's side. Might be enough to do the trick.
This is what I was trying to explain before. Replace the spindles and brakes and you should be where you need to be. By the time you narrow the axle, straighten out the camber issues. You would be better off replacing the spindles with half the work. You will need a spacer no matter what drums or rotors you put behind these wheels. There is a spacer ring that should be used when using these wheels with for drums, they were designed to fit a one year only drum, 1935. The change will not effect your MC. The '59 MC is for drum/drum brakes unless it has been modified. There may be proportioning valves added inline to get it to work on a disk/drum car. Something to consider. You wouldn't use "A" spindles use 39-48 spindles. Same king pin diameter may need shimming depending on the spindle used and the condition of the spindle. Discs are better than drum brakes no doubt about it. The benifits are only realized on heavier vehicles with better tires. With drum brakes on your truck will lock up just as if you were driving on wet pavement providing proper adjustment is maintained. The narrow bias-ply tires will slide on pavement well before full capabilities of the brakes are achieved no matter what kind of brakes you are using. It all boils down to weight, braking force, and road contact. You have a light vehicle so there isn,t alot of weight to create road force on the tires. The tire are old and narrow, again not alot of road force. The 40 hydraulic brakes are designed for a car almost 1000 pounds heavier than yours, also with wider better tires. The system is only as strong as the weakest link.
I'm thinking this is going to be stop/step #1. It all makes sense. Yes, but how thick of a spacer? Would this put me right back where I'm starting from? It does have a modified Pinto proportioning valve in place. I don't know how much that would affect things. I figured this is the way that I'd go, but I know someone was beginning to produce a kit that worked with A spindles to adapt disk brakes. I know this has been only within the last year or so, but surely someone has seen them and knows what I'm talking about? Again, this makes sense. Drums or discs - doesn't much matter on this light of a vehicle. Weight is extremely low - I can pick the back end up and slide it sideways all by myself! The motor and ****** are a 2000cc Pinto w/4 speed trans. Pinto rear, and modified setup as described in the front. Don't I know it. As I said earlier, I'm thinking a trip to the alignment shop is going to be my first stop. Damn, I'm chomping at the bit to drive this old girl!
The spacer required if you use ford drums and spindles is something like 3/32 or 5/32 inch. They used a model "A" compression ring in the old days. You should be able to just remove the proportioning valve. Do a llittle more checking on this one. Why would you align the front end only to replace the spindles and have to do it all over again? Most likely the error in the camber is due to the welding/modifications done to the spindles not the axle. I would wait until the spindles and spacing is correct before spending the money at allignment.
I was thinking that an alignment might possibly give me just enough clearance to leave everything alone as is, but I don't know for sure.
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