I'll be the first to admit I know very little about road racing other than it looks amazing. I looked around here a bit, but didn't see too much. Who all here is involved with road racing and to what level have you taken it? Who is running early tin in the modern day road racing ventures? I would really like to know more about what you're running, how you have them setup and maybe pass on the 411 regarding the sport itself (links, rules, classes, etc.). Go crazy! Thanks! Scooter
Man talk about opening a can of worms. Geez, I could write a book. I was a serious autocrosser for 10 years and that evolved into making my living building and maintaining cars for club racers and crewing for pro racers for another 10 years. I dont have any experience with formula cars, all of my experience is with full bodied cars. Most of my experience is with the Secret Car Club of America, both club and pro series. I got out just as NASA was heading east from the west coast, so I am not familiar with their program. With the SCCA you will find rules, rules, rules and more rules, with rules governing the rules. Road racing will wear, break, destroy things on a car that will amaze you, with a frequency that will make your head spin. Road racing today takes deep pockets to be competitive and race with any frequency. Autocross can be done without breaking the bank, but it is competing against the clock, one car on the course at a time. Are you interested in Road racing or autocross? What do you mean whe you say old tin, are you talking about competing in you Murray or an old MG? There are vintage and historic road racing sanctioning bodies, but the car requirements are pretty specific. With auto crossing you can pretty much compete with anything as long as it will pass a basic safety inspection. I hope this helps. I am happy to answer any specific questions that you may have.
Cool! Let it rip! Teach us the way! When I'm talking early tin, I mean early hot rods. It's funny you mention my Model A. My buddy and I were talking today and he mentioned something about road racing and if I had thought of moving things to that direction. That's when I decided that maybe it was worth asking about. So, yes. Not necessarily my car, but man the idea of running an early car like a Model A or something of that era, going just fast as hell in an old car seems amazing to me. Seems like with any racing comes breaking and thick wallet requirements. No surprise there.
I cannot think of any place that you would able to road race a Model A, although I am sure that there is someplace that it could be done. That being said, just for the sake of argument lets keep the topic focused on autocross. the first thing you need to go fast is tires, Tire technology changes daily so you almost need to go to an event to see what the hot lick for the day is. second is shocks. you cannot spend enough money here, think Koni, Olins, Penske. third is weight, light weight is good, proper weight distibution is even better. 50/50 front to rear and left to right is a good starting point and adjust to track conditions and driver preference. Brakes, brakes, brakes. Did I mention brakes? A low center of gravity is a must. Generally speaking you want the majority of the weight 18 inches off the ground or lower. Reduce the unsprung weight. All of your components that are not supported by the cars springs should be as light as possible/realistic/sane. Keep in mind that a straight axle front and a live axle rear has severe performance limitations but can be made to work. The goal is to prevent the tires from rolling onto the sidewall. Think negative camber, maybe alot of negative camber. In case you didnt notice, I didnt mention power. If you can spin the rear tires in low gear you have more power than the chassis can handle. When it comes to power, I would rather have a reliable powerplant than killer horsepower. I can get more speed out of the car than I can ever get out of the engine. Which brings me to to the next subject. Oiling and cooling. Road racing/autocross puts unbelievable demands on the oiling and cooling system. A dry sump oiling system is almost a must. If you are not willing or able to go dry sump you will need a wetsump pan with alot of well thought out baffles and an accumulator. A huge oil cooler is a given which ever way you go with the oiling system. Even if you have more radiator than you think you will ever need it will not be enough, trust me on this. Once you get through all of the above, then you start working on the chassis. There it really starts getting weird.
I love road racing more than any other type of racing. Especially the vintage stuff. I was thinking of posting a thread on this last week as well. But more based on the American Specials. These cars are so cool. Some are actually hotrods, Old Yeller, Allards (Duntov drove an Allard) Briggs Cunningham, even the famous Shelby Cobra is a special. All kinds of others in between. Jim Hall and the Chaparrals came from the this movement. These specials were alot of the time built by hotrodders and are definitely an overlooked part of hotrodding's history. Ak Miller taking on the giants in the Carrera PanAmericana is well noted but that's about all we here about. Dan Gurney actually started out as a hotrodder racing at Bonneville and would go on to become one of America's greatest road racers. And then there are the Lola T70s and the CanAm cars. And everybody loves the five liter TransAm cars of the mid 60s to the early 70s. The two liter cars were cool too. So much stuff. I just woke up again. I recommend that everybody check out a vintage (or modern) roadrace. The Mitty's at Road Atlanta is on the first weekend of May. It's a blast. I'll be there. Now I want to see some photos of the American Specials posted.
I just fully read the first posts. I got a little excited when I saw road race. Sorry for the OT stuff.
-I've been a member of the VSCCA for well over 15 years. -You can run a Model A (think Elgin Road Races...), you just have to find a governing body that will accept the car. Different clubs have different rules. -When you say "vintage tin" in a "modern day venture" are you actually talking about those weird resto mod cars that are really just completely sub framed, disc braked, big engined full pro cars with an old body put on top or are you talking about racing actual old cars? Cris
Go to several events in your area. This is the best way to see if it is something you wish to take further. Be forewarned that there seems to be a high percentage of moneyed posers in vintage racing. These types like to have very high entry fees, etc to keep out the riff-raff.
I was involved with SCCA and Midwestern Council road racing for nearly 40 years. In the late 80's it cost me around $1000 a race to compete in ITB class with a 1981 mustang 2.3. I competed for Centreal Division SCCA championship and to despite my best efforts we finish 4th in the season. The 3 cars in front of me would keep up with the 5.0 mustangs down the mile straight at BIR. My car was 100% legal dyno 150HP and could not even begin to keep up. Straight line speed is pur e HP so I wonder how much beyond legal the other cars were$$$$ With $3.00plus gas now I would venture to say road racing would cold at least $2000 a race today to compete. I have also raced Vintage bug eyed sprite, Formula Ford, GT3 Pinto. Also with road racing they are constantly changing the rules so keeping up get real expensive, along with all new safety gear every few years. good luck if you try it jim h
No kidding !!!! In 85 I won the SE Div and Atlanta region DSP autocross championships against admittedly weak opposition. For the 86 season the winning car in CSP was moved to DSP !!! I had already decided to ditch the FWD car I was racing and move to the mod class but it still illustrated to me how the SCCA works. With one stroke of the pen a competitive car can be made uncompetitive. Happens every year and there is no recourse because the National office don't care. Vintage racing is not as bad on the rule changes but the entry fees are much higher.
Cris... I should have been a little more specific I guess without narrowing things down too much. Sorry... Again, I'm completely uneducated to this subject, so maybe the idea even being thrown out here is rediculous, but thought I would try to satisfy my curiosity just the same... What I'm thinking in terms of the actual vehicle itself would essentially be a traditional rod that would be on topic here with modifications to survive such a race... safety, handling components, brakes, etc. I guess what I'm really getting at is, can someone with lets say a rolling bones era car, add some safety features and beef up the brakes to run. Sure, a straight axled car isn't going to handle like a Porsche or something, but is there a catagory for such a thing in this type of racing? For that matter, is there a semi "stock" class where a guy could take a semi stock Model A with a beefed up 4-banger and some safety equipment and go haul ass the best as one could do with that type of car? OR... maybe I'm just thinking about the wrong type of racing all together. That's it... who's up for a Cannon ball run? Run what ya' brung!
Those kind of classes to exist kind of. Check out the some of the links that I posted an you can easily see that truly vintage race cars do get raced. Check out these sactioning body linkshttp://www.svra.com/ and http://www.hsrrace.com/. You should contact them and tell them what you are thinking about. They could then inform you on which classes, modifications and safety requirements that you need. I hope this is helpful.
I see lots on rules and regulations there. Great links! At first glance it looks like the pre-'75 Historic series Vintage Class are the rules to be looked at.
I went over to Road Atlanta yesterday for the first time in years. There was an early Falcon running amongst the Corvettes and Vipers. There were also a couple of Cobra replicas and Lotus Super 7s. That was about it for early cars. The guy I went to watch was running his first NASA race. He had his car dynoed, and claimed exactly what he had. The other cars in his class were way stronger. I don't think he'll be as truthful next time. It was an entertaining way to spend an afternoon.
Hey Scoot, A local So Cal vintage racing group, VARA, has a class for pre-war cars. Here is a brief section of the rule book about it. F.4 HISTORIC (Pre-War)Pre-War sports and race cars are especially encouraged. This class may also include postwar examples in some cases. Entries of special interest will be individually reviewed to promote their participation in competition. Historic cars will be run in VARA classes commensurate with their performance potential, and receive competition points and awards as the Historic winner in the particular class. Examples: All pre-war cars, Morgan 3 Wheelers, Alfa Romeo Monza, MG T/C etc Now, that may sound like its for all the high dollar guys but something like a '30s style dirt tracker would fit right in. Or something along the lines of Duffy Livingstone's Eliminator, a road racing hot rod. VARA is a very low key group, all about having fun with cars. They are having an event at Willow Springs April 5-6. You could check it out and talk to some people. More info here: http://www.vararacing.com/Overall1.html Kurt O.
Hey,Scooter - I actively campaign several vintage road race cars ( 2 Corvettes and a Daimler ) , running in SVRA,HSR,VSCDA, and VARAC. All these organizations have good web sites explaining classes, preparation rules, etc. In the "good old days" of road racing (1950s), there were people running stuff that was really close to hot rods, both old Ford bodied stuff and specials (Devin.etc.), although not many people run them today. Vintage Road Racing is a blast, and is expensive. If you decide you want to get involved, or have specific questions , give me a PM.
Neat stuff guys! Kurt that stuff would be woth checking out. I'm going to be out of town that weekend, but I will check out VARA schedule and keep an eye on events to go to.
Right now I'm building a '70s ( OT for the HAMB ), Road Racer for Track days and the Street. Mercury Capri, SBC on Webers, etc...( pic 1 ) I used to race my mid '60s Fiat Abarth a lot, but right now I need to upgrade the Safety Equipment and do some more stuff to it before I can Race it again. 1000cc Engine, it did a 16.9 in the 1/4 mile... In the Rain.( pic 2 ) Same with my Mallock U2. This car is built with a lot of early production Car parts( modified Anglia Front Axle, Morris Minor Rear ), but you could scale it up by using American Parts and use them in a Model A or something like that... ( pic 3 ) My Model A is not a Racer, I built it for the Street But I had it on the Dragstrip and maybe someday I'll take it to the Track, if I dont have to modify it to run it. It was built with a lot of Road Race influence in it, though... ( pic 4 ) The Morgensen Special. I still need to completely Restore this Car, but it should be a lot of fun. A Road Racing Hot Rod.... ( pic 5 )
Its Great... You lay down in the Car on the Right side of the Engine ( RHD, English Race Car ), and my feet are about even with the Front of the Engine. The Back of the Seat is about 1/4" away from the Rear Axle. Top of the body is 23". Right now it has what is basicly a Formula Ford Engine on Webers ( Souped up Cortina GT ), but it will get a Formula2 spec Lotus Twincam. Here is a pic of Arthur Mallock working on my Car. I was really fortunate to meet him before he passed away...
Wow! 23" tall er short. Sounds like too much fun. That's what I'tell myself to prevent envy. Ahh, that's too much fun for me.
There is a caricature painting of a Berlina Corsa 1000 TCR on the wall above the desk I am sitting at I did the roll bar, fuel cell install and some other fab for the owner and we took it up to Charlotte for a test day and I got to drive it a pretty good bit. There was a woman there painting cars and I had her do the Abarth. I used to Solo 1 an ex HP Fiat 850 that had an Abarth/PBS 1300 cc 124 pushrod engine conversion. It pulled a 3.50:1 R&P versus the 903 cc racecar's 4.11.
This is my '55 Victress I am working on. Glass body out of Burbank on a 120 Jag chassis, fi small block Chev. Wheels and graphics are photochopped idea of where she is going. She's getting close ...
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