Two Hemis and a brain teaser!

SCOOTER,

If ya come to back to the beach we can bench race about these Boat Anchors.

I really dont even want to get into it here since about anytime i say anything anymore the PROFESSIONAL KNOW IT ALLS wanna tell me how many things i say are wrong.. Even though i have done it & the ****er is running down the road !

All i can say is COMPRESSION & CAM !!!

Ohh & the 6 2s arent really that Friendly for the street

And mine has 11.5~1 on Pump HY~TEST, Combustion chambers are VERY forgiving & wont Detonate like the Pontiac guy says, I know this To cus i have a 10.0~1 Pontiac that dont like warm Weather either

 

Thanks man! Those are nice words!

We'll see how lucky I am after I take them to the machine shop to be checked out. I may find out I have one big mother load of metal worth nothing! HAHA! I'm not putting any bets on BLOCK 1 yet, and here's WHY:




The skirt of the piston had to be broken away to get the piston out the bottom of the cylinder. The bent rod wouldn't allow it to go up and out of the cylinder! WOW!

Here's the damage to the bottom of the cylinder. The stuff in the cylinder you see is just some garbage from the wood we were using to pound out the piston...



I expected a lot more damage! The extent of the damage was done to the crank. The journal at that piston is screwed.

 

Speak up! I want to hear what you have to say! I want to hear how yours does on the highway too! I've been meaning to ask you that for awhile!

If anyone starts ****, I'll make sure that it's cleaned up. I REALLY want some input from all people that know early Hemis. Hemis a breed of their own for sure! This thread has been SUPER productive so far and the responses have been fantastic! I'm glad you replied!

 

Just for fun... here's what I saw when I dropped the pan. I was baffled to say the least! HAHA! I stared for a minute and thought... HMMMM.... something doesn't look right. **counting big end caps** 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7,... uhhh.... 7.... WTF! Where's 8!?



Look at the area around the oiling port in the journal!



And here's what I dug out of the black swamp of doom that was the oil pan...



I don't know what the hell this thing was, but it actually looked like part of a chicken bone! Certainly wasn't metal, whatever it was...



so now you know why I'm a little concerned about that cylinder!

 

Scooter,

Early Hemi's are torquers, and can take more compression than a wedge motor, make sure your machinist knows early Hemi's, Cam timing with a Hemi is differant than a wedge motor. you don't need valve seals on exhaust valves. Hemi's don' need a lot of oil to the valve train. call Bob Walker at Hot Heads he knows these motors. I don't think the 6 deuces are worth the trouble, they do look good though. I would'nt bore the motor to max. The differance in inches isn't worth it. and these motors are expensive to build. I have 3. I know.


Ago

 

I call Bob off and on for various things. I like to post stuff here first though as an opportunity for interested parties to learn along with me. Picking up and calling is easy, but then only I learn. Just want to share the wealth for someone who may be planning a similar build or who have thought about a similar build.

Yes! Expensive! UGG!

 

scooter,
My cam is a .480 lift intake and exhaust with 230* duration at .050" with 110* lobe separation and it is meant to operate between 2500-6000 rpm with a 4spd or auto w/2500 stall convertor and 373 gears or better. Mine is a 392 so the extra cubes also help. It needs 10:1 compression for the cam to work. So you really need to figure out what rpm range you want to operate at and when you want the power to come in and what compression you will have then talk to the cam manufacturer to fit your combo. I'm running two 600cfm 4barrels with progressive linkage not a bad combo at all.

 

For engine #1, use block #2. A .060 overbore is all I would do to give yourself an opportunity to rebuild again in the future without finding another block. I think .060 over makes a good combination with stock stroke....right at 342 ci.

As far as the cam goes, I think you are close with the numbers you have above, although Bob Walker would tell you that the .512 lift is too much. Tighten up the lobe center to about 108 and I think you'd be happy with that grind. Be sure and get the right valve springs to match the cam, and cut the guides down so that the retainers don't bottom out. You'll also have to cut the spring pockets out for larger diameter springs. My Isky solid cam as .525 lift and I have no issues other than melting the rear tires.

I'd also go with a solid cam and adj. pushrods....you won't have to re-adjust very often at all....contrary to what you may read here.

I don't agree with the 1.75" primaries for the headers. I've got 2" primaries and it doesn't kill bottom end at all. The late 331 and 354 heads breathe so well that I think smaller primaries would choke it down some and kill your top end to a certain extent. Don't do too much to the heads other than a good valve job, new guides if needed, and just a basic clean-up. The ports don't usually need anything for a street/strip motor.

I'm running 10.5:1 and can run premium (93 octane) without pinging. You may want to limit yourself to 10:1 if you can only get 91 octane.

If you the carbs dialed in and your spark advance just right, you should make 400 hp at the flywheel with no problems with this combination.

For engine #2, I'd sell the damaged block and start looking for a 354 or 392 to strap a blower on top of. Afterall, you're not ready to build it yet and there's a good chance a good deal on a 354/392 will present itself before you get around to building it.

 

Also, use good rod bolts and stud the mains if you plan on winging it much past 5500 or so.

 

Any idea what kind of HP you're seeing? How's the idle? Sound pretty gnarly?

I was thinking I would like to keep the RPM's in the 2000 to 6000 rpm range when in gear. 6th gear is the killer. I don't want to be at idle going down the highway obviously. Done all those gearing calcs already. I have lots to play with for optimum gearing since I have that quick change.

My six Hollys will be progressively linked also. For some reason I want to say the 94's are like 117 CFM or something?? That would flow me in at around 700 CFM when all are dumping. That doesn't seem unreasonable for a cam similar to the one you're running (PAW 11363 I ***ume?).

 

You Think too much!!!!!!

 

I was so hoping you would reply! Thank you sir! I was thinking you were going with just a light overbore on your 331! That is fantastic input! THANK YOU!

YES! I also agree with the studding!! I want to run a windage tray in the pan anyway, so just one more reason to do it. I've always thought studing a block was such a simply thing to do to protect yourself.

Great input on the solid cam/lifter combination. The main reason I was staying away from it was BECAUSE of the reason that you mentioned; constant adjusting. I could see some adjusting taking place during a break in period, but had a hard time seeing much adjusting after that.

How much have you messed with your adjustable pushrods since you got everything up and running?

 

I know. I'm a sick person. Just want it to run better than yours! HAHA!

just kidding.

 

I checked it twice last year. Once before the Roundup and once before the Day of the Drags. It didn't need any adustment either time. The feeler gauge (.018...checked hot) just barely had some drag on all the rockers. I did re-adjust once after the engine had been broken-in and it needed minor adjustment.

I haven't put a ton of miles on the car, but it's been enough to know if it's going to require constant adjustment....and it doesn't.

 

Interesting project.

I doubt that much magic will be needed to make 1.1 hp/in^3.

Make sure that the reciprocating ***embly is ready to spin at a little higher speeds than the factory engineers anticpated, get a valve train that will support 6500 rpm, add your plethora of carbs, use decent headers, and it should be a done deal.

Not that the advice you have gotten here is incorrect, but definitely talk to a cam manufacturer or three to see what they recommend for your combination. My guess is they will all be within a close range of what has been mentioned here already.

 

Back in the day when those mills were hot rodded and very popular. Compression was even higher than what you are shooting for and gas was better quality, they still had difficulty reaching 1 HP per cubic inch normally aspirated. Supercharged is a different story, don't be disappointed if you fall short of your 350-400 goal....

 

Great reading here guys, I too have learnt a lot as I have a little 331 about to be delievered. Seeing there is an issue with one of the blocks why much around with a 331 for a blower motor and go find a '92????

 

When I did my 331 build I bored it 1/8 cut the heads .100 and I think I used a Howard 3/4 grind hydraulic cam with a single wcfb four barrel and I don't think I was even close to 300 HP.

 

They also didnt have the Cam Technology that we have now either.

 

Great! That's good news! That's what I was HOPING you would say. Thanks man!

 

In the last Engine Masters Bob Walker did pretty good with a 331 Hemi. Took 6th or 7th overall I believe.

Taken from the Engine Masters web site:

" Team # 26 - Hot Heads/Gene Adams Performance
Dan Miller and Gene Adams
<TABLE cellSpacing=3 cellPadding=3 border=1><TBODY><TR><TH colSpan=3><TR vAlign=top><TD>Pull # </TD><TD>Torque </TD><TD>Horsepower </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>1 </TD><TD>417.7 </TD><TD>363.3 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>2 </TD><TD>416.7 </TD><TD>362.9 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>3 </TD><TD>416.9 </TD><TD>363.3 </TD></TR><TR vAlign=top><TD>Avg. </TD><TD>Avg. 417.1 </TD><TD>Avg. 363.3 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Final Score - 2329.6 @ 335 CI

BACKGROUND

Hot Heads / GAP brought an early Chrysler 331 Hemi based entry, the first engine of this type we have ever seen at an Engine Masters Compe***ion. With the open cubes lending to diverse engine types the early Hemi was just the kind of unusual iron we hoped to see. Anyone knows this old iron can make awesome power, and these guys are truly experts with these engines. The engine showed complete Composure during the warm-up pulls, matched only by the composure of the team in the tuning phase. A jet change brought power up further, bringing the unusual engine well into first place at the first day of qualifying. "

Keep in mind that the "average" torque and horsepower readings used for the results were developed over a 2500-6500 RPM range. Pretty stout street performance from a 10.5:1 motor on a single four barrel.

Cheers, Mark

 

Just so a good block (if it's good) doesn't go to waste AND because I have it. 331, 354, 392, all good motors. Just depends on what kind of outcome a person is after. Since I won't be doing any competative racing anytime soon, I don't NEED to have a 392... would certainly be AWESOME though! They're starting to be come BIG money and they're getting harder to find. They're around though.

Hmmm.... that's concerning. An eye opener though. Tell us more about the actual specs. How did you determine that you WEREN'T getting that kind of HP? A stock 354 pushes more than 200 HP right out of the gate I believe.

There is a really good machine shop around the corner that my boss has been using for years and he's very familiar with early Hemis. He will do a full machining and balancing of the rotating ***embly. He's very reasonable as well.

 

Very nice choice of vocabulary by the way! The word for today is "plethora".

 

my thoughts are...to not bore either block any more than necessary,in order to preserve the blocks for future rebuilds . spend your money on good cam and head work .in the power department, i think either hemi will be very impressive in your 2000 lb model A

 

I saw the article myself, and it pretty was pretty impressive. But you forgot to mention that they also have a set of their aluminum heads on the engine, which is one of the main reasons those kind of HP and torque #'s were achieved, and they barely broke 350 HP. Take those heads off that engine and you'll lose 50 HP.Scooter implied his combo was retaining the oem stuff, which regardless of advances in cam technology as someone else mentioned, ain't going to get him close to those #'s.....sorry! Bolt on a set of those Hot Heads and he could easily duplicate those #'s. That article was a blueprint of what is required to get those #'s, compare what mods you are doing to yours vs. theirs, its an easy comparison.

 

Oh, gee. I hate to be a voice of reason, because I'm a gear-head and love internal combustion engines.

But... I think I'd go conservative on precious rare iron -- at least at first. The junkyards aren't full of them anymore.

I have recent experience going overboard on a Ford FE 390. It could have been really sweet, but I got greedy. I loved the lumpy cam, but hated the bent pushrods and broken rockers. Every time I worked to sort it out and I think I had it, some other valvetrain part would break. It is a real PITA to sort out issues with having to order special order part$ every time. It you had an SBC, I'd say go wild with it. Parts are cheap and available anywhere. But you have a unique piece of history in these hemis.

I'd suggest building it fairly stock first with just enough of an overbore to clean up the bore. Polish the con-rod beams and balance it all as if you're going racing, but keep the cam moderate. Then you can slowly and gradually upgrade cam and everything over time.

I hate to be negative. I'm just sharing recent experience with a motor that is harder to get parts for.

Hovever, from the sounds of your project you're being very systematic about everything, so maybe you'll be ok. Good luck and I look forward to reading about your great progress.

 

Scooter,

You want to run vacuum advance if you are doing a lot of highway cruising. You surely don't need a 6 speed in a light model A. Plus they are long and you will have crossmember and shifter position issues. I have a Tremec 5 speed in my blown 354 Hemi 32 Ford with QC. Don't worry about HP numbers, That 331 in a light A will put you back in the seat and melt the tires. I know from 1st hand experience. Torque does the real hauling. The 331-354 blocks are lighter and stronger and cheaper to buy than a 392.

Ago

Real Hot Rods have 3 pedals and Hemi engines

Mash the loud pedal down HARD and hold it there till you **** yourself

 

I don't need pizza as much as I eat it either, but.... awww... what the hell?!


Ch***is isn't done, but neither is the rest of the car either...

I know I don't need it, but I really wanted to see what I could do with it just the same. I will rarely see 6th in sunny California traffic, but it's there when I need it.

Thank you everyone for your input. Keep in mind with all this... these are all TARGET ideas. If I don't/can't make the kind of HP I'm looking for, then no big deal. It appears as if it would be a huge challenge to get the horses that I'm looking for, not to mention a fat wallet, but I had to at least investigate. I will drive it with whatever I can get out of it, but I sure would have been upset if I wouldn't have researched and just built it only to find out that with a couple "more researched" choices I could have done better.

Thank for brainstorming with me everone! Hope I kept you entertained and the blood moving in the noodle for a couple days!

 

Don,t know the HP but let me tell you it moves my 40ford almost to the point where I'm losing it (that's a good thing)! The cam is the PAW unit. I'm figuring easy over 400hp at the flywheel. It has a nice lopey idle and sounds good with the magna flows I'm running. My car probably weights in around 3500 pounds so yours should be alot lighter. My car cruises well but I think yours will do better with the trans you are using. I also found out the combo likes about 28* total advance (4* initial timing). My distributor is all mechanical no vacuum. Keep us posted on what you are going to do.

 

Great info! Thanks! Sounds fun!

Now that I know who's hiding their Hemis... go to this link and post some pics and specs:
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118873&highlight=HEMI+Tech