I need some paint help! My 54 project has been dragging on. My wife graduates nursing school at the end of this month and her parents will be here. I really want to take her dad for a ride and have it look somewhat complete. I want to put a satin finish on it for a couple of months before I paint the whole car. I dont think I can use epoxy because I have a lot of etch primer on the car, other parts of the car are in evercoat feather fill. I was thinking about valspar epoxy until I read their tech sheet. I have used lacquer for the interior and I love it. Is there anyway I can flatten some black lacquer? My other thought was to use some kirker hot rod black but I really want to paint the car in lacquer and dont want to sand the whole car down again. I plan on painting the car silver with a black lace roof and some scallops. I just need to figure out what to do. I might even just use high build black and hope for fair weather!
you know - you can get the same look without using lacquer and killing the environment (and yourself). Why not just get a matte clear (Alsa,Dupont and RM make some) and just do that? Id also go back to the addage that I say all the time too- make sure the body work is what you wqnt before you move on. NO reason to waste time painting if the car underneath looks like ****, You'll just get a pretty job on a ****ty car.
I definitely would not go laquer like Lenny said. There's no point to it as its nowhere near as advanced as our urethanes and enamels that we have today. It would be a bigger headache for you in the long run. If you're looking to use the matte finish as your final topcoat, I would do as Lenny says. First use a urethane surfacer to even out your surface. Find a nice black base that you like an use a flattened clear over it. All the big guys offer a pre-flattened clear ot a flattening agent to use in regular clear. The best way to go when trying to make it hold up and be versitile. However, if you're looking for a temporary solution to impress the in-laws. (Not a bad move, we all have had to do it ) Try using a black urethane 2K high build primer. Then it can be sanded to even out the finish when its time for your topcoat. Its more temporary and probably easier and quicker as well. As long as you stay true to the tech sheets like you're doing, you should be OK. Every product has its limitations so know the product you're working with. Good luck.
I'm going to second what S&L says-- you DON"T want to introduce laquer onto the the substrate of epoxy/ polyester primers you've been using. First---It's considered "junk" paint with regards to the modern catalyzed products. Also-- unless you want to sand **ALL** of it back of when you're ready to start primering/blocking again, you will end up with what's called a "laquer sandwich". Laquer air dries hard-- but will soften (essentially start to melt like a cheap plastic) whenever coats of paint/primer are applied on top of it. Catalyzed products- particularly something like an epoxy or Polyester primer surfacer dry through a chemical reaction and will remain rock solid whenever solvents from final primer and paint topcoats penetrate the substrate. Also-- laquer takes longer to fully air dry than the modern urethanes that you will probably apply over it. The "sandwich" part comes in when- and usually doesn't show up until- final paint when its possible you may apply up to ten successive coats of sealer, basecoat, and clearcoat. The solvents from these topcoats will penetrate the laquer sponge layer underneath and soften it. Meanwhile, the Urethane products on top will air dry and catalyze hard-- far before the laquer is done releasing all of the solvents that it's absorbed. The laquer remains soft and encapsulated between the rock-hard polyesters under it and the urethane products over it. Anyway-- You used to be able to buy DP90 (Ditzler's black epoxy primer), and I know at one time you could tint K36 to almost back. Either way, there has to be a catalyzed black sealer out there for you. You can always just use single stage urethane black and add flattener, too (already mentioned, I think)
So is there no such thing as a satin lacquer? Everything that is on the body of the car is compatible with lacquer. I used the same primers on that dash and it came out fine. As far as lacquer being more dangerous than a urethane with isocyanate’s I’m not to sure about that. I don’t understand some of your posts. We don’t do things because it’s the best way we do it because it looks good or traditional. I have seen a lot of urethanes that just don’t look right on a old car. Everybody on this board talks about how much they love lacquer and would love to use it if they could find it. Well its out there! Slownlow I respect your knowledge even if its not want I want to hear. With the laced roof and scallops what paint do you think will be better? I think I will just use a urethane primer for now. If I thin it a little more than usual and spray it smooth would getting some bird **** on it cause a problem? It’s a big problem at my house! This car won’t be in primer for very long. I do have some body work to do in the window channels so that’s the only reason I cant paint it yet. I have the money to buy some primer but not enough to replace the windshields if I were to break one removing them. Once we have two pay checks this shouldn’t be a problem!
Years ago we used to use something called flatting agent. Don't know if it's still available but it would give that satin effect to the degree that one desired. If you feel comfortable doing it in lacquer, go for it. Using an HVLP system makes spraying lacquer much better than it used to be.
Hey hobbyjp. I have recently used a good product that should fulfill your needs. It is an epoxy primer that I used as a sealer over bodywork and under base/clear topcoat. Been on the car close to a year now with no problems. It is manufactured by Southern Polyurethanes. You can see their product line here http://www.southernpolyurethanes.com/Product%20lines.htm. The owner is super accessible through either their User Forum (go to home page to find link) or his cell phone. Where else can you call the owner of a paint company seven days a week to ask a paint question? Anyway, I think you will like it and of course it drys with a matte/eggshell finish. Oh yeah, it sands beautifully as well for when you are ready for the topcoats. Joe Selva
Thats the wrong at***ude to have when it comes to the paint and body. I understand that it goes for the rest of the car, but don't use out-dated paints if you want your car to look good and last. There's a million reasons not to use laquer and a million more to use urethane. Now on to your question. The only way to do a laced roof with scallops and flake and candy, yada, yada, yada is with a urethane. It makes no sense to have half the car in laquer and the other half in urethane. Don't get me wrong, you can, and some still, do custom work with laquers, they look great. But the fact remains, they just aren't as good or as versitile as the modern urethanes. Not mention the environmental effects and the man hours that go into these jobs making them look good.
It's not an issue of the primers you've used being "compatible" w/laquer- you can put about anything over epoxy primer. But unless you plan on doing a laquer job all the way through- don't even go there, even just for right now. The thing with laquer is this: ONLY Nitrocellulose laquer can really be considered a relevant Traditional finish. Nearly all laquers available today are acrylic. Nitrocellulose has very specific qualities, and does have a certain "look"-- but only after being buffed, and those unique qualities are very subtle. The closest product that's readily available today is Nitro-Stan laquer putty. Easy to sand- but somehow brittle at the same time- and shrinks like a *****. (I think there are actually some nitro-laq paint finishes still available also) Nitrocellulose comes from the same era when the term "Mud" was used to describe what we now call "Bondo". It was called this because it was- like nitrocellulose laquer- an organic compound, and not an engineered polymer like modern polyester fillers. It really was a sort of, well, mud. Nitrocellulose laquer has a similar sophistication--probably closer to a varnish than anything in terms of stability and hold-out. So before you go getting romantic about laquer- be clear about what you really want. Chances are, a urethane with flattener will be far more resistant to smudging anyway.
In the mid 50's, when I was doing body work, Nitro-stan was used to glaze over primed body work and then block sanded in the same manner as polyester fillers is today. (by todays standards Nitro-stan is ****) When 'Bondo' (brand name) came out in the 50's it was a polyester resin. It had different characteristics than todays fillers in that when it cured it was rock hard with no flexability. Because of the different rates of expansion, at times the Bondo would fall off the repair at a later date. At that time we never referred to Bondo as 'Mud'. We started using Acrylic lacquer about 1957, (pimarily on GM cars)
If you're not planning on having the car in primer for too long anyway, you should just use PPG DP90lf. It has the right sheen to it and is a great base to anything you'll be applying later. You will need to prep the the car well with 320-400 paper because DP90 is not a primer surfacer, it will not fill scratches. The primer will hold out very well in the elements and when you wash the car, just wash it with a white scotchbrite to keep it looking uniform. If you want your paint job to last, don't use lacquer. The reason your interior looks ok is because it doesn't have the exposure to UV rays like the outside will have. Slow and Low and 58 ridge have given great advice. I'd follow it. My 2 cents.
hobbyjp, all you have to do is what slowandlow says, he's dead on, and myself, i've been doing body work for 32 years, and can tell ya he knows what he's talkin about, same with fridge. laquer went out with the ****in' hula hoop. it's a whole new ball game now with urethanes. there user friendly and last a helluva lot longer. do it once, do it right!
Nice!! I had the privilege of working with a couple of "old-timers" about fifteen years ago- a couple of guys that did Packards in Dayton, OH and had been restoring cars since, well....probably close to 50 years. They still used lead (oc***ionally), and used to tell me all kinds of stories about bodywork way back when.. Of course I'd like to think they're still around. .......started working at a restoration shop in the late 80's-- when you could actually still buy factory-pack laquer, and guys were experimenting with clearing over it w/ polyurethane clears. I remember seeing a few guys drag their toolboxes in and out of there that still preferred using Kondar & Nitro-Stan. Funny stuff now. I actually got to spray/buff a little bit of nitrocellulose from left over cans during that time. A black model A and a '51 Chevy kustom...... Weird stuff, huh?
You said you wanted to do epoxy but didnt think you could over etch primer? Epoxy is great over etch primer. Generally done wet on wet but you can sand it and spray black epoxy right over it. Thats what I would do, I have had a 68 chevy truck sprayed in black epoxy and it has held up for a long time. Eventually (years) of outdoor weather it will begin to break down and get chalky, but even then you just sand and spray whatever over the top. Its good stuff.. I wouldn't lacquer it either. its just a bad idea, hard to work over and you can get the same look with urethane no problemo...
Be careful with making that a integral statement. Most epoxies (at least the ones that I have used) aren't compatible over or in the same room as etch primers. The acid in the etch primer causes the epoxy to lift and blister. Some do work together, but be sure to check the tech sheets.
Been in the body business 40+ years, stick with the dp 90, besides the enviremental concerns, the old stuff didn't compare in durability or ease of use.
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