Now that the gas crunch is in full swing, are you charging for estimates on rides and rods you have to travel to look at if they cant bring it by your shop? Im not talking about present day collision jobs, Im talking more on the rod end of things.....
Not an owner, but it'd leave a real bad taste as a customer and make me wonder if I'd be paying for your mistakes too. Cause even the best make mistakes, but only the honest ones don't bill for the time to fix em. If your margin's so slim you need repaid for estimating, the decision line on who pays for mistakes can get blurry real fast. Even honest people gotta eat. Know what I mean? Just my 2 cents. Good luck.
Would you want a cabinetmaker to charge you to estimate your kitchen? That should be built into the job.
being a shop owner i am a real busy person. I perfer that they breing me the car. Sometimes an estimate can take days if you sit downand figure parts prices and labor.
I have always charged for estimates on cars I have to go see on my own time. I started doing that after I looked at too many "DREAMERS" cars that are probably in the same spot they were 2,3,5 years ago. If the customer decides to have the work done at our shop, we credit them back the cost of the mobile estimate. This has worked for us for a while now with good results. Hope that helps.
I have thought about doing this exact same thing, I have had an awful lot of people looking for quotes and they are just not serious about having the work done. I think telling them that they are refunded the estimate charge would separate the dreamers from the serious people and I would be able to work more on the customers cars than spend time losing money on a job that somebody has no intentions of ever getting done.
Not sure where you are going with this. Here is what I am referring to: You have a guy who wants an estimate on his 55 pickup for metal fab and bodywork. You drive 2 hrs to look at it, spend an hour there chatting about the work he wants and 2 hrs home. 5 hours total. Do you charge for that? I know my time & expertise is worth something and me being out of the shop is costing me cash. I may get it back IF the job comes to me....
My day job includes a lot of estimating and traveling to the site to do so. If they ask for an estimate on repair, I just tell them "we don't estimate service calls." We charge X an hour and if I have to come out to estimate it before we do it, it will be with an extra charge. For "jobs" I do travel but it gets added into the bid price. For resto/rod estimates, I would give them the option...tow it/bring it to me or I charge X for the estimate. If you choose to have me do the repair/work, that X will be refunded in the repair work. Also, most here can tell if a guy is serious about having work done. If it's a pretty good chance you'll get the work, then do the estimate for free and up the cost of the job to cover your time.
Im not a shop owner. My sister is in LA, works in the Studios, hair & make up for Movies & Commercials. When she does side jobs for Wedding Hair, meeting with brides she charges a consultation fee. If she actually gets the job, the fee is credited. I think its a good practice to weed out the dreamers, if it works for the hair & make up industry, it should work for a Hot Rod Shop.
5 Hour trip is not the norm from shops that I know estimating, and not what I thought of with your original post. With the age of internet it's kinda foolish to make that kind of time investment without both parties already having a good feel for each other. Here's what I'm getting to with my earlier post. The customer has to judge more than the quality of work you do, they also have to judge you. If the very first thing you do is squeal about losing money on the estimate......you know what they say about first impressions. I'm not an expert on business relations, but I have funnelled hundreds of thousands of dollars into small shops thru my employers over the years. Maybe not all customers are like me, but when I hire, I highly factor in how this person will handle minor disagreements over money. Will they see the larger picture that I represent 15% of their business this year, or will they stop work for 2 weeks over a $50 miscommunication and threaten to boot my work? (seen it a hundred times) A reasonable customer should not expect you to fork out a hundred bucks in gas and a day of your time for an estimate (unless that customer's name is Poteet). You don't want "that dreamer guy" as your customer, it's bad for both of you. In this case, I'd agree on the "estimate charge refunded thru shop work" plan. A reasonable customer should expect an hour of your time, gratis, as a meet & greet & estimate if that customer is prepared to pay for over a thousand dollars of your labor. Your shop rate needs to be fat enough to absorb this guy's hour without him hearing about it. The estimating process is a two way street. Meeting the customer in their natural environment is important know who you're dealing with too. The information you gain estimating also reduces miscommunication when actual work is performed. There's lemonade to be made with those lemons tough spot to be in for a small shop, you got my sympathy there. good luck
I agree on helping to weed out the dreamers- Ive seen it a few times- I go out to the location, speak with the guy about what he wants done- suggest ideas and then never hear from the guy again only to find out he chose a lesser quality shop. I also like the ide of meeting them in 'their' environment. I went to one guys place more out of curiosity as he sounded like a whack job on the phone but had a cool car to work on. When I went there- he opened his garage to show me (gasp) 6 cars he is looking to have done. Needless to say, I got the job AND learned a lot moire about him just by being there... (good for me ) I usually chat with the guy on the phone before I even schedule an estimate so it helps for me to see what type of person I may be dealing with as well. Some of those calls can be 1/2 to an hour of trying to find out where the guy is at with the ride first... (and I dont charge for that of course) I know I also request the email me pics of the ride before even speaking with them (if they emailed me about work) to give me an idea of whats going on. Im curious from the guys who DO charge on how you do it- hourly rate ? Flat charge? Rate and mileage? I know if I do an appraisal I charge for mileage if it isnt done at my shop .... Which is VERY par for the course around here...
I was going to suggest emailing pics of the car, you already covered that. I assumed you were staying fairly local with these estimates, if you're going 2 hours each way to look at a car, then I'd charge labor only - not mileage. Keeps it simple, and you can probably incorporate another trip in with this one anyway (parts run, etc...) Also, how would you get payment up front for the estimate, if you did charge for that? If they don't use your shop, you can't add it to the bill. So you have to fluff that into a business expense, like utilities and such.......
I think it is the nature of this business to have many folks waste our time as shop owners. People forget that just because it's their hobby doesn't mean we have the time to sit around and BS all day. Smaller shops are generally ones where the owner also works in the shop, so if you spend a bunch of time with a dreamer then the shop has lost money and eventually goes out of business. A couple of Big Name West Coast shop owners all told me the same thing when I was struggling with this, if you want to ever make any decent money as a shop owner, you will have to get out of the shop and become the "Front" man as everyone will want a piece of your time. Otherwise you will struggle to make it and it only gets worse as time goes by and you try and grow. You can eek out enough to pay the bills but that's about it. Especially here in So Cal where the rents are so high and the insurance is worse! In my shop if someone wanted me to come and look at their car for an estimate, I told them there is a charge, in cash, for that. I explain that my time is valuable and any time spent away from the shop means I am losing money. If they agreed to have us do the work then we credited it back to them. Very rarely did they balk at this and if they did they probably weren't the kind of customer we wanted anyway. The other issue is most of the cars that my shop did were "completes" as versus small partial jobs and these are damn near impossible to give an accurate estimate of anyway. We worked on a time and materials basis and gave a rough rage of costs up front with the warning that it could go up do to unforeseen problems, like missing parts, bent frames, unseen rust etc. Then there is the problem of customers adding or changing things as the project moves forward. You tell them "Yeah, we can do that, it will be an additional XX amount of dollars" have them sign something and they still question it when the job is done. For that reason we billed weekly and if they didn't pay, that project moved to the back of the line. (learned that from Roy Brizio). I've also had customers that wanted to hang around and BS for hours while their car was being worked on. When it get bad enough I told them we are billing time on their car whether we are working or talking, it's up to them. That usually cures that problem. Shifty, I think in your regular job it's a different situation because you are dealing business to business and that is a different relationship compared to an individual who might be trying to do his first car and has no real clue as to what it costs. You probably have a better idea of who you are dealing with, and so do they, and you are building on an going relationship that is vital to both businesses.
no estimates. charge hourly. bill weekly. They can take their car outta here at anytime for any reason... as long as the bill is paid in full. too many variables with old cars to do it any other way. for the tough sells, I suggest letting them tell you how much they're willing to spend per week.. then let them see how much work that pays for. things got so much smoother round here once I started handling things this way! btw, for the guys who like to hang out, hand em some tools and put em to work!
Most of my custom business is several hours away.We charge on an hourly fee for these estimates unless I have other business in the same area(which I usually do).By the time I write one of these estimates and document everything it is not uncommon to have a days worth of time "lost".All charges for estimate are refunded to customer if he decides to have us build their project.I explain this before hand and if customer is serious they have no problems with this.Customer does not see or is told of estimate details until all fee's are paid.Remember an estimate is only that.Most people change the plan numerous times as the build progresses,as an average an "estimate" will double by the time your finished.Mike
I see where you're coming from hotroddon, but ask any fabricator who's dealt with supplying one-offs to factories, there's plenty of dreamers on both sides of the fence. Sometimes I ask for a quote along with an apology that we're probably not gonna need one but some dumb*ss wants to see it on paper. Sometimes that dumb*ss is me. And no, sorry, company policy prevents me from paying for a quote. So can I have a super detailed 8 page long quote pretty please? Sometimes these shops are no more than hot rod shops, in fact that's how DB sprinter got the job building my roller chassis, met em on the company's money. On a side note, I've had a few non-business buddies that were gross dreamers and shop time wasters. Will tell you this though, if a builder came to look at their junkpile, they told everybody they knew about this awesome builder that they could recommend, then blabbered the same thing to anybody with a cool car for a few years. So when you visit the dreamers, bring a STACK of business cards and put those b*tches on the street. Nobody ever said pimpin was easy
I'm in the collision repair business, and the free estimate has always been the standard.I'll drive to look at a car ,but not 2 hrs.I think in your business,where the customer is considering a large project, driving 2 hrs and spending the day with them is not unreasonable. Of coarse before doing that you've done your home work.Is the client serious? does he just want me to store his car? most important, can he afford it ? I think by going to his turf these questions can be ansewred.It is also an awsome selling oppertunity.
If I have to travel to see the car and put together an estimate I charge $50, it's usually enough to weed out the dreamers. If they come by the shop I usually throw together something for free.
Wow man- you sound like me and my shop- wanna move to MASS?lol CUrrently , my customer base is anbout no further than about 2-3 hours from me, but moving west every week. I have two clients currently that are from Oregon and California respectively and getting more interest from that coast all the time. Of course, I wont fly out for an estimate- that would just be silly. I do have a contract and work order (depending on what level of work it is) and have even told a few of my high maintenance local custmers I charge by the email because I had over 170 emails from them in a 6 month period.... LOL
I think you're dead on with this. I have wasted many a Saturday morning looking at cars that will ever get done to give estimates that will never turn into invoices. Mornings I could have been working making money, let alone what it costs to drive anywhere nowadays. This is my new policy implemented now.
My dad is 81 years old and still works his ass off every day not only building customs but doing collision jobs at his shop. He not only will do insurance work but he will pick up and deliver a customers car at NO CHARGE. Just call it "old school" but he has generations of families that still come to him for work on their cars. He knows he can't compete with the "big guys" but he aint tryin' too hard either...he don't like their style...says don't have any. By the way....this is within the Bay Area....
As a shop owner of over 15 years I've learned you can get close to a good estimate with enough pics through e-mail. That way no one is wasting time , and gas driving. First, and fore most everyting is by the hour, I dont care what they want done. Give a complete estimate for a big job, and it will bite you in the ass, that I can promise. If explained to the customer the right way they will understand that there is no way of tell them for certian that it will cost X amount to build you "dream" car. I tell customers talk to people that has had work done by the shop in question, and weather or not you feel comfortable with the owner of the shop, that should be the deciding factors on having someone work on your car. Lastly, I look at it like; if the customer is not willing to bring the car to me to look at they are not serious about getting the work done, and are just wasting my time.
no estimates. charge hourly. bill weekly. They can take their car outta here at anytime for any reason... as long as the bill is paid in full. too many variables with old cars to do it any other way. Good Job (( Killer )) Seriously, If any of you guys' want to ( make a living ) working on customs, Bikes & Hot Rods - have those words printed on a Big Frickin sign, hang it on your shop wall, then live by it. If you do not - you will lose.
i have to explain all the time that with the information I have right now that is the price I'm guessing it will cost. I tell them an estimate is not a contract, it is an educated guess.
Estimates are the bane of my very existance. There's always that one damn hoseclamp...Ya Know? I have all but stopped traveling to look at projects. I have simply started telling the potential customers that I can't afford to leave the shop-which is the truth. My place here at the shop is Owner, manager, lead mechanic, Wiring guru, painters asst., Janitor, etc,etc,etc...If They are serious, they can provide me with enough input that I can get the ball rolling. If they are dreaming, well, it's like any other line of work. sooner or later, You can smell the b.s. before You step in it. and Yeah...We have been having to get stricter and stricter on Payment schedules. One guy that ends up out of pocket for a week or more can throw a major monkeywrench into the financial works.
On collision repair work, any shop should be able to provide a free estimate. There are set labor times and part prices to write an estimate from and unless there is a major "judgement call" labor operation, the estimates stay the same from shop to shop. Not too much brain power used there. On the other hand, estimates for custom fabrication, bodywork and paint can get really involved when getting into all of the options of build style and replacement parts availability or whether to get new parts or rebuild old junk. A shop estimater can use alot of time just calling around to find out if replacement parts are available. Within an hour drive one way, we DO charge $150.00 for a "house call estimate". We will take this off of the job ticket when they bring the job to us. This applies to complete vehicle rebuilds or at the least major rust repair, bodywork and paint. I have to understand that not all customers have the ability to dig out their potential project that may have been stashed away for many years, drag it on a trailer to our shop only to get hit with the reality that "IT REALLY DOES COST MONEY TO GET A DREAM CAR BUILT". If a customer schedules ahead of time and brings/drives a vehicle to the shop I tell them upfront on the phone that I will look at their project for free for 1/2 hour at our shop. This includes a general evaluation of their vehicle and broad ballpark figure to get work started. This is all verbal. Past that they will be informed that they will need to pay the $150, get 2 hours of my time and leave with a copy of our contract for review and a tighter ballpark figure for repairs. They will be informed that an estimate is just that, AN ESTIMATE. Our contract covers suprises during the build and covers part price changes. Again, this applies to complete/near complete vehicle rebuilds. Minor mechanical, body or paint repairs have no estimate fee when the vehicle is present at our shop. We have done this from the begining and not just recently because of the high gas prices. It just weeds out the dreamers, usedto-haves and general time wasters.
i make lot's of "house calls"...both to look at potential work and to actually work on someones hot rod. some guys just prefer you to do it there on simple jobs , but i only charge for when i'm doing the work and not for looking and/or travel there
I own a restoration/hot rod shop. www.99westcustoms.com I will travel for an estimate depending on the scope of the project for no cost to the customer. This only comes after quite of few phone calls, emails, pictures etc. to ensure the person is serious and understanding of the process. I believe in Old school customer service but you definitely have to be carefull with the price of doing business.
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