Hot Rods 51 Plymouth Questions & Build Plan

I will give you some more info as some of the previous answers were incorrect.

Your car DOES NOT have a semi-automatic transmission. It is a regular three speed behind a conventional clutch. If your clutch is slipping, the first thing to check is pedal free play. You should have from 1/2 to 1 inch clutch pedal movement before you feel the linkage engage. The adjustment is under the car by the bellhousing - you'll see. If you have inadequate free play the clutch can slip. If you have correct free play and it still slips, you need a new clutch. One last possibility is that the flywheel somehow is wet with oil. Not a likely possibility but if you adjust the clutch, drive it a bit and the slippage disappears than that was it.

Your engine is 217.8 cu in. If you make a custom exhaust use small diameter pipes as you need back pressure and exhaust velocity for this long stroke engine to breathe. These engines float the valves at 5500 rpm, and that is a lot of rpm for the chicken bonnes they used as connecting rods. 2500 to 3000 rpm is good for cruising. At these low engine speeds you want smaller exhaust pipes (hgeader or split manifold).

If you go to dual carbs make sure there is a provision for carb heat. These engines like the carbs heated for good fuel atomization. The stock intake uses exhaust heat. Some back-in-the-day dual carb manifolds used hot water. I recently boought a repop Offy dual carb manifold and it has provisions for heat. The old Carter Ball and Ball plain dtube downdraft carbs on these motors are very simplistic.

The gas gauges on these cars dance because the gauges are not damped as in more modern cars. However, you should be getting consistent readings. Remove the access plate in the trunk and remove the sender from the tank. You will find that the wiper is not making good contact, or maybe even a few windings are broken. You can repair or replace the sender. The gauge is fine.

These cars have a LOT of lubrication points. Read the service manual. There are grease fittings and oil cups in places that other cars of the same era did not have. It is one of the nice engineering/design features of these cars. For example, that clutch linkage of yours has a whole pantload of lubrication points. I guarantee that most have been long forgotten. Spend a few hours finding them all, cleaning them out, and pumping in fresh grease and with the oil can. It is a lot of work - Plymouth wanted all of these lube points hit EVERY MONTH - wow - and I guarantee yours have not all been hit in decades.

The front suspension is a weak point on these cars. The front shocks, for example, work on the differential action of the upper and lower arms. AN improvement is made by fabricating a bracket to affix the upper shock mount to the frame. You should also significantly increase the size (diameter) of the front sway bar. Ther are many ways to upgrade the brakes and steering while keeping the stock a-arms. It is always a lot of work. The alternative is to put in an aftermarket front suspension (Fat Man and others) or use something like a Chevy S-10 suspensions which, IIRC, fits in between the frame rails. If this is just going to be an easy driver, it is a tough decision as the stock brakes are just one step above dragging your feet on the ground, and in this day and age that can be a problem.

Please feel free to message me if you have any other questions about this car. In spite of their shortcomings they are kinda neat.

John

 

Regarding the oil coming out the oil breather: these cars did not have a PCV system so it is normal for them to blow vapors. Here are a few things to watch out for: if you remove the oil fill cap with the motor running and rev it a little up and down, and you see regulalry spaced puffs of smoke, that could mean your rings are going. The compression test will also give you some good information. If the engine puffs blue smoke out the exhaust on trailing throttle deceleration, it is valve guides. If you leave a cloud of blue smoke when you accelerate, it is rings.

There is a second breather on the right rear bottom of the engine. THe theory is that the oil filler intakes freash air and the fumes exhaust through the lower breather. Only no one removes the lower breather, dips it in kerosene, reoils it and reinstalls it EVERY MONTH (LOL) as Plymouth specified. So the bottom one gets filthy and plugged and more comes out of the top, getting pwners upset and helping keep the motor filthy.

With these crude crankcase ventilation systems, dirty ambient air can get into the crankcase, not good for engine longevity. It is highly recommended that you install a PCV system so that the engine gets only filtered air inside it and also to keep things a lot less grimy under the hood. At the least, makle sure that both breathers are cleaned in kerosene and reoiled regulalrly, and make sure that the wire wool 'air filet' is intact in both of them.

Your oil filter is a bypass, so it eventually cleans all of the oil really well. But dirty oil can get to the bearings. Modern cars send the oil thru the filter before it gets to the bearings. So obviously you want to change your oil and filter regulalrly. But believe it or not, a PCV system can help keep dirt out of the oil, too, as without one dirty gritty ambient air can be sucked right in to the crankcase.

John

 

Hey thanks guys.
John, where can I get oil filters for this engine?
Also, this might be a stupid question, but where is the oil filter located on this?

Where can I find, and how do I, retrofit a PCV system to this engine?

I only get thin white smoke out of the oil filler, and out of the lower breather when the car is running. I don't see regular puffs, just kind of random smoke trailing out. I don't get any smoke whatsoever out of the exhaust, and definitely no blue smoke.

 

The Oil Filter was "Optional" back in 51. If it has one it will be behind the distributor on the drivers side of the motor.

 

Asche did an intakes and split exhaust and carbs that I recently sold...quality workmanship

 

I hads a 47 dodge bak in the late fifties, it went wherever i wanted to go.of course with today,s hiways you may need a higher gear in the rear end. was dependable and smooth riding the hambsters here have already given ya some good tips. the engine compartment as I recall isnt V8 friendly, but with all kinds of straight 6's available you wont need one. hop up the stock supension a little and use disc brakes for sure. A buddy had a 49 plymouth 4 door that had a Chrysler flathead [with OD] we took it to Colton, to see how it would run and it did pretty good. If ya need any more info i,m sure the guy,s here on the hamb can help.

 

Biggest problems with front brakes is improper adjustment due to people not doing a proper adjustment. I still have my old set up on mine and though not as effective as 11 inch rotors draggin down a 2400 lb honda, they work just fine especially with some wider radial tires. There is an extensive article on proper adjustment on the P15 D24 information section along with the PCV how to and parts list.

The oil filter system used on these cars was know as a bypass system. It directs about 30% of the oil flow through the filter at any time. The default/failure system if the filter gets clogged is to revert flow through the engine, the belief being it is better to send dirty oil than no oil. Also keep in mind that when these were being used alot of roads were still paved with dirt, Under hood conditions were very dusty, oil was non detergent with very simple additive package if any at all.

Look on the p15 board at the post about the 100 point woodie. there is a very good shot of teh engine with what the oil filter set up looks like.

Also I would suggest you pick up one of the repoped service manuals that are on epay frequently.

There are 26 or 27 grease fittings depending on if your water pump has a fitting. If it does it should be greased with a waterproof grease. Todays boat trailer wheel bearing greas or outboard motor lower unit lube is a good substitute for water pump grease.

2 each inner and outer tie rods
2 each upper A arm inner
2 each upper A arm outer
2each lower A arm inner
2each lower A arm outer
2 each king pin upper and lower
so thats 24 for the front end
1 each clutch and brake pedal bushing at master cylinder
1 clutch torque shaft and
1 grarshift bell crank

Also there are provisions for greasing the inner rear wheel bearings. At the outer ends of the axle between the springs and the backing plates are a couple of screw plugs. Remove these, and push in some grease with your thumb. Do not add zerks as this will over pressure the seals. While back there, the polt that retains the rear brake line spliter fitting also functions as the differntial vent. Tho top should wobble around. If it doesn't clean it and free it up.

The generator has two oil points one with a tube with a spring cap, ad at the rear there is a port with a small spring clip covering it. Gp oil for these two. The rear of the speedo also has an oil cup that takes light house hold oil. Sewing machine oil works great, git it at any place that sells sewing machines.

 

ahh brings back old memories of watching Barney at Barney,s Mobil, doing the service on my Dad,s [and then mine] 47 Dodge. Thats when a guy could make a living from a little old gas station.had a lot of grease points in them old cars back then. yea you could get them brakes out of adjustment on the mopars and then you had a job trying to get them back. I remmber those grease points and stuff that 'ply46'. mentioned, Dodge was the same. That little 6 would go pretty good.

 

Cool ride, always glad to see old mopars on the road.

 

Hey you guys thanks again for all the great info.
I'm gonna check into all the lube points this weekend.
I ordered a repro shop manual off Ebay last night, should have that in a couple days.

Here's the latest:
I've got a pretty nasty exhaust leak at the heat riser on my stock intake right now, as well as just below the collector from a crappy weld on the exhaust pipe. So I'm moving up my engine mods ahead of schedule.

I've been doing alot of research on here about the Langdon Stovebolt dual Holley/Carter 2bbl carb setup, and have a couple questions.
I'm ordering the following from Langdon tomorrow:
(www.stoveboltengineco.com)

*Langdon Cast Iron Split Headers - $325
*Flange & Seal Kit - $15
*Heat Plate for intake manifold - $30
*Inlet & Exhaust Gasket Set - $9
*Offenhauser 2x1 intake manifold - $235
*2 Carter/Weber Carbs - $170
*2 Carb 2->1 bbl adapters - $30
*2 Polished air cleaners - $90
*1 dual carb linkage - $45

I have a couple questions for you guys though:

What all do I need to water heat the intake manifold? Does it come with the necessary parts, or do I need to source those?
If so...what?
Where do I bring the heated water from, the thermostat/upper radiator hose? Do I just T into the rad hose, or is there a modified thermostat housing?

What all do I need to split the fuel line to both carbs? Does this setup come with necessary parts, or do I need to source those?
Is the stock fuel pump adequate for running both of these Carter carbs?

Also, I noticed the electric chokes on these carbs require a 12v source.
My car is still running the stock 6v pos ground system, what do you recommend for using the electric choke?

I posted a new thread for the exhaust questions, but I'll ask here too:
Also, for exhaust I plan on using Langdons' recommendations:
2" pipe from manifolds to mufflers, 1 3/4" pipe from mufflers to back bumper.
What mufflers do you guys recommend for a classic, loud flathead hot rod sound?
He said short glasspacks with little round holes inside (miramount or cherry bombs?). What length? Where do I get them?
He also said, mufflers mounted as far forwards as possible.
Any comments?

Thanks!

 

Keep us posted on your build

 

Thanks for the info.
I think I'll just not use the chokes for now. The choke doesnt work on my stock setup right now, but I haven't had any problems with cold starting (it's San Diego!)

Can you help me put together a list of what I need and diameter hoses/fittings/T's for the hot water and fuel line.
I want to have everything here and ready when the parts show up.

As for mufflers, I think I'm down to the 18" Cherry Bombs, or the Smithys (22" is their shortest I think?)

which one!?

 

Hey guys, I got all my parts the last couple days from Langdons.
I noticed I was missing mounting hardware for:

*Hardware (bolts) to mount the carbs(adapters actually, 2 bolts per adapter) to the intake?
*Hardware (4 bolts) to mount heat plate to intake?
*Hardware (12 bolts?) to mount headers to engine?

I emailed Langdon, and he said that hardware was not supposed to be included.
Thats fine, but could any of you guys please tell me the sizes/length of the nuts/bolts needed to finish the job?
I'm trying to get everything together ahead of time.

Thanks!

 

Hey guys heres some pictures of all the parts

Any help on the hardware sizing would really help!

 

Talk about a makeover...you little mayflower were purring along the I-8 in no time...can't wait to see it

coming soon: rodtees.com

 

You got that right. We're gonna have to go for a cruise real soon.
I drive her to work in Poway every day, so you might see her cruisin around there. I'll definitely make it up to Ramona soon!

 

Plymouth never used the Fluid Drive coupling setup like the Chrysler/Dodge/DeSoto cars. The Plymouths had a straight up clutch system just like Ford/Chevy/Studebaker etc.

That is a nice little car and will last you the rest of your life if you treat it well and rebuild it correctly.

 

Kut it !!!!!

 

hey evan we never hooked up. call my cell Monday during the day eastern time. my email is plym49@yahoo

 

Hey Plym. Sorry just saw your msg. I will try and give you a call tomorrow.

 

Well guys, things just took an interesting change!

I happened to be up in Upland at my parents house for a couple days (West of Riverside), and was cruising the local Inland Empire Craigstlist.

Happened to find a brand new rebuilt 218 out of a 50 Plymouth.

I gave the guy a call, he had just had it rebuilt, ran it for 150miles in his Plym, then pulled it for a SBC.

I headed over to Hemet, paid $600, and came home with a new engine, (EVERYTHING is new or rebuilt), including new carb, manifolds, rebuilt alt, rebuilt starter, rebuilt 3speed trans.

He also threw in a ton of parts he didnt need anymore.

I'll sort through them and put the stuff I don't need up for sale soon, so let me know if theres anything in particular you guys are looking for.

I'm gonna start the engine swap tomorrow, any of you San Diego guys wanna give me a hand? (never pulled an engine before...its gonna be interesting).

 

So I guess I should've said, all my Langdons goodies will be going on this bad boy...should be an awesome setup.

My original engine/trans combo will be for sale soon as well.

 

I put a 90 Dakota rear end with a 3.55:1 ratio into my 48 P15. All that it required was changing the spring perch location and change the rear U joint. I think the 46-48s have a wider track than the 49-54s. You can find new reproduction shop manuals on e bay for under $25.00.

 

have you ever been 'down in Downey' ?? groan----sorry it just popped out

well you will have to pull the front group off, [fenders forward, comes off together, radiator also] Then look for all the things connected to the engine/trans assembly and write down the tools you will need. when you start pulling it out go a little at a time and check whats still attached [usually something is]. you may need to tilt the assembly up so watch for oil and water coming out.

 

Hey guys

Pulled the original engine today, gonna get the rest of the parts and get the new one in next weekend.

Original engine is for sale for $100...come pick it up in San Diego.
Runs great and is complete with trans.

Here's a couple pics:

 

Figured I'd give you guys an update.

The new engine is in... still working on some minor stuff.
Car should be back on the road early next week.

I'll post up some pics soon.

 

Man you are kicking ass on this one...can't wait to see it

cool tees: www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=236347

 

Had a bunch of trouble getting everything back up and running...made some stupid mistakes.

Just about got the new engine running, have to hook the clutch linkage back up and shes ready to roll.

I'll have a good update and pics soon!

 

I remembr when my Dad had his 47 Dodge engine rebuilt, it ran like a new car.It had served us well, we had traveled to Yosemite and the parks for many years. When he went to get another new car I got the Dodge and he traded in my 41 Ford business coupe, [on the new 56 chev], and it lasted thru high school. Your Plymouth should do just as well. the Dodge would do 90 so it wasnt so slo.

 

I recently picked up a '52 Dodge. Some really good info here I can use. Thanks to everyone that contributed.