Are traditional hot rods and Customs too perfect now?

"It don't mean a thing, if it ain't got that swing."

Meaning, perfection is more about feel than being right on the beat. It's an art, not a science. You might be able to play all of the right notes, or put on the right parts, but if you don't feel the blue notes in between the lines then there will always be something missing.

And just like in jazz, a well placed "less" is usually more powerful than "more".

 

I only know what Ryan's looks like.....I can't "make it better" for him....BUT.... if it were mine, I'd have a little more color to break up all that black. And a different intake manifold...just to suit MY tastes.
That's about it, I love his coupe......was that too lame????

 

So are you saying that someone should intentionally make mistakes to make something look period perfect cause that's the way they did it back then?, Sounds like fake patina to me.

 

Why the names, it's obvious there's a connection between the builder and end result. Not sure you would be saying the same if the builder was unknown on the above mentioned Hot Rods. Granted, they look spot on, but knowing who built it, gives it more of a complete picture. I think to ask this question is pretty vague and when you ask for perfection on a build, it's asking for....Let the chips fall where they may, it's up to the builder decide the outcome. But I believe the Home builder will take the time to get it right.

Ken

 

I've written the features for R&C on both of Rudy's black roadsters ('29 & '32)- they are stunning cars, built by a talented builder. Does any of this need to be dissected, analyzed and overly thought about-NO. Hot rods (and customs) are like music- they hit all of us different for entirely different reasons. Two people LOVE the same song- but for entirely different reasons, one person loves it because they became an adult while it played- another just loves the base line because it speaks to them. Same with cars- we all love them for slightly different reasons- so this topic will have a MILLION different opinions. Does it matter what you are inspired by or building? Will you REALLY build your own car differently if enough people have a different opinion than yours? I don't think so. Why ask what someone would do differently on someone else's car? Make the owner question his choices or let someone else feel good because they would do it different?
I've rarely (if ever) seen someone take a well beloved car- change it and it become a "better" car. We loved it for a reason the first time around (like your first girl friend) once she gets married to a few other guys- has a few kids it's just not the same as when you were 16 and everything seemed perfect.

If anything this topic has the ability to make people post long winded personal opinions- self included

 

My first question would be did Barney have the same size wallet as the builders of these cars? I love all the cars but they seem to be apples and oranges to me.

Maybe I don't get the question?

 

Nah.....I shoulda just kept my keyboard shut in the first place.
This shit's getting way to DEEP for a simpleton like myself.....
I just really dig old cars.....I think I'll go drive one now.....

 

Very interesting discussion here.

Perfection might be any racecar built by Tony Nancy. The Niekamp and Frank Mack roadsters. Sam Barris' Buick fastback. Anything, anything at all, built by Woody Gilmore.

Taken far too far, the Frank Pedregon Comp Coupe as done by Pat Foster. Now, that is a beautiful car, but the Taco Taster was NEVER that nice. And everybody who has seen the original says while it's a nice job, it ain't like Frank's was. But I bet Pat couldn't do it any less than what we see today. Perfect car? Yes. Perfect recreation, far from it.

Another example is the restored Muntz custom originally done by Bailon. The restorers (can't recall exactly who, might need to check my TRJs to see) left a little of the hidden, rather crude work, as a tribute to what what really was. Perfection? IDK.

We are heading into Zen Koan territory here...

 

I like the idea of being complete as Aristotle had put it. "Nothing to add, Nothing to subtract". That is really what we all should strive for but the car should be "complete" only to the owner/driver otherwise is will never reach that state.

And intentional mistakes should be avoided unless restoring a historically significant hot rod I think. I heard that the original Milner coupe's Chop is all fucked up but is carried through on the recreation cars.

 

Interesting perspective... I'd have agree with this thinking.

 

I tried for perfection once....turns out that I don't have the patience for it myself, nor the money to pay someone else to do it for me.

I am pretty critical of my own stuff, I try not to be critical of other peoples work (to extremes anyway), but when I get complements on my work, I usually point out where I think I screwed up.

Recognizing this flaw in myself has helped me realize that beauty really is in the eye of the beholder, and perfection is awefully subjective.

I have seen many cars and projects here and in other places that strike me immediatley as "perfect", but bet the builders of these cars would point out their flaws.

Everyone has a combination in there head, perfect body style, perfect stance, perfect wheel and tire combo, perfection color combination....and perfect level of finish...of course we don't all share the same "perfects", so what may be perfect to me, could be a complete abortion to someone else.

I don't think there is any such thing as perfection, otherwise, nobody going for the Ridler or AMBR would be nervous or excited.

When you step back from your car, after taking it for a drive, take in a nice slow look, turn around and smile.....you've nailed it.

 

I think the difference with Navarro's T racer was his car was really used as a vehicle for to test his and Betty's mechanical ideas while trying to not get killed in the process.

I would have to assume the internals of a Navarro engine was finished as finely as any race car or high quality rod of that time period.

 

I think JimA sums it up pretty well........a matter of perspective.

 

When I think about this question I can't help but think about the car I want to build. Currently getting parts together for it but I know I want a chopped A Tudor. However I ask myself how much chop is to much to get it "right" or "perfect"? Is it 4" or 5" maybe 5 1/2" I have seen pictures of cars with all of these chops and they all look right. I agree that there is a thing as too perfect, but I think that more applies to the fit and finish of a car. I look at restored 100 point cars and say "well that's perfect right there." Every nut and bolt is perfect the paint flawless, one of those cars that you can go over with a fine tooth comb and not find a single thing wrong with it. At the same time those cars I find boring. Sure it looks good but once you start driving it it will no longer be perfect. Like others have said "perfect" is different to everyone. My brother has a t-bucket that in my mind is not close perfect. However I look at the car and I look at him and say well that is perfect. I couldn't see my brother driving a t-bucket any other way it just fits him. I think it comes down to pride I guess you can say. If I build something I want it to be the best i can make it. Now the best I can do might be better than others but is no where near as good as some. I can't help but think that even some of the best builders today say Foose can look at a car they built and call it perfect. I think knowing my limits kind sets the bar for my vision of "perfect." Just some of what's rolling around in my head.

 

So- what is too restored then?
Even in the early 60's- I had a 29 roadster. 1st thing I did to it was flush fit the doors & nail the gaps. And that was 40+ years ago.
Every car I had- going all the way back into the 50's was built on the absolutely highest level I was capable of at the time. Primered cars were not finished cars in our club. We drove them in primer because it was our DD until we saved up enough money to spray on some shine. There was always 1 or 2 in the club who could paint & paint was pretty cheap.

 

perfection like beauty is in the eye of the beholder... Its all about your individual taste, what is perfect for you... for me Id much rather have a dirty, muddy, primered, shittily-channelled model a than a show car with perfect gaps and paint... maybe because im impatient and would rather drive it, but the way i see it its all about taste. i can really appreciate the car that has every detail perfect down to everything, the wiring, the paint the gaps all that, ALso i can really get into all the purpose built shit, old jalopy racers, lakes cars, hell even cobbled togther built-in-the-driveway-after-the-war cars. as long as everything has purpose, is done for a reason, and has an overall tastefull appearance, and is different its perfect... You cant do anything just for the sake of doing it, the car will know what it wants to be turned into to me a perfect car is one that was built to drive, to do what it is supposed to do, built for a reason... Taste combined with function are the most important things to me. there is nothing wrong with taking the time to make sure everything is "perfectly" done and lines up and sits right, but also theres nothign wrong with letting ome stuff slide, its all about character anyway, individuallity, being different, being tastefull, but not to tasteful haha. the thing about cars built back in the day is that they used what they had, and made what they didnt, so cars werent perfect... they had flaws becasue joe couldnt afford a welder so he had to make his own, or cause he didnt have a 34 axle he only had a 37... today we have the ability to build cars exactly how we want, with the exact parts we want, and it is pretty cool. I think we should worry less about re creating a past time, and more about using that time as a major source of inspiration, while forging ahead and being creative in our own new ways, continue in the spirit of the old days. Im not sayin forget about the old days, or use new parts and shit, im just sayin its more important to do your own thing, be period correct, while thinking of new ways to do things... i dunno what im gettin at haha i guess im sayin we should use the past as a heavy influence, stay true to all of our period correctness, but also be innovative and creative at the same time...

these cars are all perfect... Just different kinds of perfect

 

good for you Zach, im glad you left a human mark on the grill... i call it soul... perfection (or beauty), as said before, is in the eye of the beholder.

 

Really perfect, or perfectly real?

Part of what got me back into cars after a long time of just not being interested in the direction that rods and customs were taking, was - I guess what you might call - the youth movement. By this I mean that there were now cars being built that were LESS perfect than the stuff I saw in the magazines and at the big indoor shows (which for a while was my only exposure). These cars were homebuilt and a little bit more crude (for want of a better word) but THAT made them seem more obtainable to me - like "hey, I think I could pull that off."

Previously, the hobby was all about the high-tech, super high-end, modernized stuff that to me was not only lacking in soul, but also totally unobtainable (either monetarily, or by my limited skills) but this new movement got me interested and off my ass to start my own project.

Now there are builders like Rudy who are building the style I like, but taking it to a level that again is unapproachable to me because that perfection comes at too high of a price. I really, really dig his cars, but they are like going to a high-end art museum - the art there is beautiful to look at, but I know I will be leaving it there when I go home. Whereas if I go to a small gallery, I see art that I can afford and I start to get excited about the possibility of adding something to my walls.

 

Samiyam said it about 99% what I would have said if I could arrange the thoughts as well.

I'd just like to add that ANYTHING we do to or in the genre of the old hotrods is hampered by hindsight, while "the great ones" were built with foresight, and that's what we treasure but can never recreate, much like that first time with that first girlfriend.

 

Here's a car from my high school days.
As perfect as anything built today.
Fit and finish were done to a very high standard and the little fact that it was the fastest car in the county and a 32 made it most desirable to the Shoebox runners in our little gang.

Pic's borrowed from Kiwi Kev . . . muchly appreciated.
About circa 1956 and 1957,







The car, with its roller cammed Desoto Hemi and four carbs - later six - was his daily driver and it was common to see it running the streets of Ventura for several years.

Sad part for me, at least where the 32 was concerned was that it had the Desoto engine, Packard trans, quick change rear pulled for use in a dedicated drag race roadster - a 29 on 32 rails in fact - and sold for $400. as a roller with junkyard 46 or so Ford rear end under it.
An Olds Rocket was swapped in and the car left town just about as mysteriously as it first appeared with an Olds engine about 5 years prior.

Even then, $400. was a bargain, but sadly for most of us new to the workplace troops, $400. was about two months wages....

 

thanks plan9
im trying to do this whole car to what kevin's talking about i think?
trying to stop when i reach the point where "joe average" would have stopped because he didnt know any better or couldnt do any better
in my case its half the same story...i dont know how to make a perfect lined gloss black car...never done it...
im hoping when i get my car all said and done that people look at it as a recreated machine from the past, not just a modern built rendition

kevin,
look at the pierson coupe for example...the seat is cut down and thinned...and they left the weld
that right there ought to show you where it stands...that car was as nice as any back then....but it still was only done to where it needed to be done to

everyones right...its all opinion...i still keep going back to the statement of "we're not building hot rods, we're building time machines" and thats why so much effort goes into thoughts like this
you can't go back to 1949 influenced by 2008

theres new ideas to be found and new ways of doing things...but if your car is supposed to be a certain year, then you have to only draw influence from things prior to that year....
fords had flush doors before WWII, someone may have copied it
the model40 ford windsheild had been out since 33...sure someone could have thought to copy that
i dont know where im going with this...those who get it...get it...those who dont....probably never will

is this wrong enough to be right?

 

I'm as bored now by a row of perfectly proportioned black '32 Ford roadsters as I was a row of perfectly restored turquoise '57 Chevys and red 64-1/2 Mustangs...

Quintessential Hot Rod = lack of creativity
but...
Quintessential Hot Rod = highest resale value

 

I'm curious how many guys who want to be totally '40's correct would be willing to put down the TIG and weld with gas.

Does brining today's technology (metal shaping tools, TIG's, electric hand tools, etc.) with you into the "time machine" tilt the playing field a bit? If the guys in the '40's had all this stuff, would their cars be of an even higher level of perfection?

Don't know...

 

The term traditional hotrod is too broad. If you want to break something down to the extent you have, then you have to do the same with all the terms you are using.

This no such thing as a "traditional hotrod."

"Traditional & Hotrod", are the keywords of course. If an individual or group of enthusiasts had been the first ones to rod a 32 coupe and called it a "hotrod", then everything built afterwards would be a traditional hotrod. Provided they copied the process to original specs, thus being "traditional"

This would be true for every make,model, year and individual person that participated. The term is just too broad to group into a catogory. Then it becomes an opinion, and thats where you run into trouble. The term means something different to everyone who uses it.

Therefore you will never find an answer to your original question. The question then becomes traditional, not what the question asks.

Good luck and happy "parodoxes."

 

Interesting topic for sure. But yeah, it's one of those things you can analyze the piss out of and it really only comes down to the guy behind the car. At my rate, I may only get around to putting together 10 or 12 cars in my life, but I guarantee they will push MY buttons. The fit and finish will be the best I can achieve whether it is by my own two hands or being able to buy someone's time. And, as has already been mentioned, how perfect do you want to make any one part and still feel you are making forward progress? Again, that is something only the builder can answer (unless you are a pro, then the client has say in the matter). I know that in any car that I've ever had, there were some things done to the finest degree and others that were 50% refined (maybe!), and I'm fine with that. Some folks have the skill and the many other variables lined up to put together an absolutely, headlight to taillight, perfect car.
"Are traditional hot rods and Customs too perfect now?" Definitely some are pure perfection, but for those building a traditional style car as best as they can, it's going to happen. We've all been furthering this hobby for decades now and, of course, our abilities and skills are improving all along.
Good lord, then it REALLY gets confusing when you try and factor in a "limit myself because it'll end up BETTER than my hot rodding forefather's attempts" mentality. I'm not even saying this is out and out silly, but if done with good taste and knowing when to draw the line, a car built with this mind-set can be awesome as well. Faux-tina(?), I know we don't need to go there, BUT, I also find room for that as well, when done with taste. AND, I think a car such as that can even have that elusive soul.
OUR favorite rides as a whole are indeed getting better and better and many times are MORE vintage-perfect than the cars we are emulating. I believe that's a line that shouldn't be crossed too heavily, but to what degree, will always be fuel for the fire. What draws me to street driven hot rods and customs is the casual vibe some have and by "casual", I don't mean sloppy or lazy, I mean the car is not a formula one rocket ship with huge budgets and corporate tie-ins, but something lovingly crafted by the builder (whether it is a single person or a group). Something that exudes pride because of the effort.
Not to put Pat Ganahl on some kind of freaking pedestal (he's already too tall) but damned if he doesn't come up with schitt sometimes.....Ganahl wrote somewhere that basically, hot rods are over detailed in some aspects and completely lacking in others. I can see that, live with that and even LIKE that philosophy.

OH. Coldwar, you are spot on.....