Are traditional hot rods and Customs too perfect now?

Man...
I have had this same argument in my head 1000 times. For me, it is often when trying to make a repair or hand made part "match the feel" of what is already there...

I will give You an example of what "perfect" or "almost perfect" does for me.

3 Years ago at the round up, I got lucky and parked near to the stage. this meant I was centrally located enough that during my "sprint" to look at all of the cars there ( thank god it's 2 days now.) I could stop in and grab a water, or heist the Fender skirts for some cookies. (gotta keep the blood sugar up, Ya know....) My first trip out, I glanced at a cool little roadster. "arrest me red", with a good stance. I wandered about, and on the way back to the wagon, I looked again. something stood out, but I couldn't put my finger on it...

Then it dawned on me I was looking at a baby hemi, very nicely detailed, and stuffed down between the framerails. it had alot of killer parts (the four inline carbs looked bitchin, and judging by the fuel stains, they all worked)
It ran Radials, but my guess was it ran them to gather up enough "goodguys" and N.S.R.A. stickers to cover one headlight and half of the other one. It clearly wasn't fiberglass, because the errant rock chip here and there showed a touch of rust, as did the spot where the drivers side hinges had worn the paint off, and had that fine powder of metal-on-metal deterioration. That thing that subconsciously said "I get opened and closed ALOT." it was missing it's gas cap (which probably either rattled off on the highway somewhere, or was left of one of many,many visits to the gas station) and had a lone star can torn in half and hurriedly taped over the hole. The more I looked at it, it was obviously in near constant use. A zip tie over here to keep this part from rattling, 1 off color bracket on the motor from either an "on the road upgrade" or a simple replacement after the old part broke, and he couldn't find the exact same color of rattle can to re-paint it. the interior was nicely done, but the heel marks in the carpet were starting to show, and there was a stain along the top of the seat where the drivers arm sat as he cruised the long Texas highways.

in a word, it was a pinch of both-beauty in form and function.

and Therein lies the rub. here's a fine example- Kirks starliner. Right now, it's "rub Yer naked ass on it" perfect. You can admire it, but You certianly don't want to touch it. (well, normal humans may want to lick it, but I digress.) It is pure bitchin...But I couldn't own it. I would be afraid to...that first door ding, rock chip, ass print, whatever...it is a heartbreaker. But once he has gotten past that point, and it moves into it own "charecter", then it only gets better. it develops it's own soul...apart from "what it is", it becomes it's own animal, altogether. and it's not just a pretty paint job that does it for Ya, Either...Mr.Fords coupe is there, too...You have a ton of "getting to know You" hours with a car before You really are aware of it's liabilities and it's standouts. and with that comes wear.

The foose cars...sadly, some of them never get that level of intamacy that You can only get with a car at 3 a.m. between Austin and San Antonio on a sunday night. when the world just fades away and it's You and It.

But the owner built "close to perfection as I can get it" eventually will. as far as parts selection, build quality, and fit and finish...I chalk the marked improvements to "todays traditional" versus "blue blood traditional survivor" up to history. When the early Gow Jobs were being built, they were not only making it up as they went along, they were using alot of what they had avalible. Those lessons they learned were in turn taught to us. we are now fully aware of just how good a 32 frame looks under a model A. We have seen every way to make the cowl and frame fit together "just right".and the beauty of it is this- to quote Mr.Bass- it really IS the last PURE American artform. There is alot of truth to that. The devil is in the details, and our attention to those details is what has brought them all together into these "closer to perfected" forms. Todays "tradish" cars have distinct advantages, which are sometimes their downfall. If You have every avalible "offenwhatever" part, then before too long, not only is it a rolling billboard, but....well..."That hat is wearing YOU, Son" it's too much, and the feeling of history is replaced by the feeling of Money spent. Looking back, the only guys who had a specific company's parts strewn across the car were the guys who owned said company. the guys who were building to drive had whatever worked best. Looks were much less of a consideration than function, and the form was often secondary (even if at the end of the day they added to it.)

Are they getting "too perfect"? mabey. but it is being done (typically) in a tastefull fashion. There are too many extremely well done cars out there to argue with. sometimes, it is excessive, but every once in a while, someone nails it. and honestly, I have found that the guy who "nails it" isn't trying to. He's just trying to build a Hot Rod and drive it.

 

I do believe Highlander and Lux Blue just nailed it right on the head!!

Form=Function
Function=Form
Both together make a driveable enjoyment

I just want a rod that fits what I am looking for, and I don't know if only one will fit the bill or not. I have eclectic tastes when it comes to cars, not just rods, but everything that grabs my interest at that time. Maybe that is why I have 20+ cars, trucks, and motorcycles.

 

Build what you like and let the opinions fly. The shared opinions say little about the car and a whole lot about the mouth it came from.

 

It seems to me that to many builders nowadays build to an "ideal" of a 50's or 60's rod, as opposed to their own creativity done in a 50's or 60's style or with period pieces. So they have to have an Auburn panel dash set, and 37 Lasalle tranny and 55 Desoto grille teeth in their 49 Merc, and so on. Not that those aren't classic, but there are SO many options and choices, that I kinda get tired of the row walk at car meets, because I see the same things again and again, and many are done very well, and look very smooth, but I don't feel the "personality" of the car or the owner. And even the non-traditional stuff, like Foose, even though I could never achieve that kind of technical precision, feel souless to me, like I'm looking at a fifties version of a Ford Taurus.

 

An simple anology?

A cave man needs a table, so he makes one from a few rocks and some stix lashed together. Another cave man sees it, likes the idea, and makes one a little bit better. Another cave man comes along and tries to make a table, but he's such a dufus he can't get anything to work right. And so on, and so forth. A zillion years later, you now have wood workers that range the gamut, from some guys who still can't make a shelf with a factory cut planK and concrete blocks, to the home hobbiest, to framing carpenters, to manufactured furniture mfgs, to fine cabinet makers, to fine furniture makers and lastly, to a small group of guys who's work is more like sculpture (no offense to any of the trades intended). In fact, the guys who work in the last group may make stuff so finely crafted and finished, or so conceptual / bizarre, that it may have become totally nonfunctional - either it is too nice to be used, or so wierd it can't be used. The Duchamps of wood workers. It is a hot rod, because I call it a hot rod. The guys who built the Extremeliner come to mind. So well built, so finely crafted, so bizarre that one has to ask, why do it at all? Or of some 1960's show rod you can't fit inside, or would boil in under the plexi canopy?

So, where does your idea of a hot rod fall in comparison? Is it so simple in design that it is really not much more than a sketch? Cave table 1.0 or 4.0? And while it might be a great concept, look great, etc. - is it strong enough, will it hold the load, will it rot away too soon because it isn't finished? Is it unstable and would it topple over on you? If it is made of dry wood and bear poop? Does it turn off the cave chicks?

While I enjoy bizarro show rods, and greatly amire the Moal's of the world, I need something more practical... built to take the speed bumps in life with ease and have some lasting value. Even a "beater" might do in a pinch. But not much less. Gary

PS - I left out the cave critics and historians. Soon after table 1.0 came along, critic 1.0 followed. But was he another industrious guy who wanted to help his buddy with new concepts, tools and technology? Or was this GEICO guy some interior designer type that was more concerned with color coordination and how it compared to tables of the past? From what point in time was it the cave table maker or the cave table critic who decided that tabes with wide whites were cool, or just cliche? Red or black legs were best? When did cliche become classic? If ever?

 

This turned into a long and thoughtful discussion.

Best part, no bashing.

Good question Kev.

What's next?

 

I've known lots of perfectionists over the years. Lot's of them never had anything on the road...at least for very long. They keep trying to hit a moving target when someone else raises the bar of perfection. They get something done and then it gets surpassed and they have to redo it to today's standards. It's not nice enough any more so it's back to the garage.

I often wonder about myself. Am I just rationalizing? Am I just taking the easy way out by not striving for perfection? Damn if I know!

I do know that I've had a lot of fun sliding around in the mud with a less than perfect example of what I love. Be careful the pursuit of perfection can get you hung up unable to decide or act on which option is perfect. Perfection takes time and you may find that as that time passes perfecting your once completed area of your hot rod, it no longer is perfect so you have to rip it all out and start all over again on your new perception of perfection.

 

Isn't that known as a pissing contest?

 

Maybe for some but I'll go out on a limb and say it's uncommon at the heart of the topic. For some that pursuit is the juice. I'm slow on my own stuff due to my living and time invested in the same, but I honestly dig the build as much as (sometimes more than) the use.

 

Traditional is always in style. Perfection isn't. I mean, how can it always be perfect unless you keep it under wraps and never use it? If it's a traditional build that follows the guidelines of a traditional looking rod or custom you will know it's a traditional build. Whether it has some flaws or not.
I've had my cars start out without a scratch then go to primer spots here and there and road rash and they looked more traditional that way.
Maybe we forget that rods were built and driven at the same time. Engines, trannys, rears, were swapped in the evenings after school or on weekends. The near perfect builds were being done by the Barris Brothers, Ballion and the other custom shops that those that had the money could afford to pay for the work.
The one advantage we have today, in many situations, is the equipment available to us as has been mentioned.
But bottom line I believe is, whatever floats your boat and makes you proud nd happy with your build is what matters.
As far as the original question goes.........yes and no. That also was the way it was back in the day. Show cars looked so perfect yet they didn't run.

 

Good replies to a good question.

Me personally, I took parts that I really loved and put them together in a vision I had that is built to the best of my abilities. That is how I decided how well built my car should be.

 

Ahh, I like this one. That question has been in my head lately, and I talked with my 87 year old dad on the subject. He was quick to point out he didn't have to start out with the rusted out hulks most of us can only afford. Cars, parts etc were cheap & plentiful. He had it easy, he's the first to say that. He shakes his head at the stuff I buy, and the stuff he sees at swaps. Yes, the average guy has it better today with tools etc, but has it way worse with the iron.

 

no. the bench mark has been set high. these cars serve as great inspiration to build better and take pride in your skills.

 

I guess the reason I don't have my brothers old cabriolet up and driving is
that I can't decide how for to go to change what I thought was the perfect hot rod growing up. Nice paint and a little more detail on say the brake set up would have to be a must do but how far do you go? The car
was built on the cheap in the early fifties with next to no money or access to fancy machine shops etc but it was the hotest thing in the area for several years. I went to school forty years ago to be a paint and body man and so I have an idea of whats good and bad , but I don't know that I could redo the car completely and still feel the same about it. My brother wouldn't let me mess with it over the years because while he would say it needs to much work to be worth a shit, but I believe in my heart of hearts he couldn't bear to change what had been a defining moment so many years ago. A young kid with a car and a dream. And who the hell am I to change it. I still have the tatered remains of his old hot Rod magazines that I too drooled over 40 plus years ago and as best as I remember , those hours pouring over the pics in them and reading the stories were
heaven then and now. Hell, dreams are always better than reality but driving the damn thing some day is still my goal. just one old goats two cents worth

 

check out SamIyam post #164 well said Sam

 

Hi Banjorear !
I hear you and I would not be prepared to only use the gaswelder , not because I cant use it but because TIG is much easier and gives much better quality weld for hammerweld sheetmetal . Also TIG was used in the fourties , possibly not by any bodyshop but in the airplane industri .

The original question as I understood it was also what is right quality of hotrod and custom cars . During my years in the hobby (since early eighties) I have bin trying to be better , buy better tools and machines , educate myself as much as I possibly can about customs since thats what I like . Each and every one have a different approch to the hobby , some like to be in clubs , driving their cars , some like to build cars , some like to read and talk cars , some like to paint , some like to design , some like to ........ Im not the one to say any of these guys is wrong , let them have fun with the hobby .

The real question I think is why am I building cars and for who or what . I build my cars for design , something I like to look at , drive , own , tinker with . What others may think about my car is not relevant , Im not seeking their approval , Im seeking my approval and to have fun with , its my hobby and that cant be something dragging me down , it must be something I dream of doing , planning , gather parts for , if it wasnt fun ,why bather .

I think other build their cars for many different reasons , and who am I to critizise their struggle as long as they have fun ! Still to achive the ultimate builds in quality , look , period perfect , you first have to start somewhere and do the builds that leads up to that car ............

Wolf

 

i have a friend that has a 32 3/w that he started building in the late 80s. the car has the best of everything, and has been driven on several 1000/1500 mile trips successfuly, but every time my friend gets the car on the road, he tears it back down for months or even years at a time to "make it better". i told my friend that when he gets through with his car, it will be the nicest 32 in the world, but he will be too old to drive it. if i can't drive my car any place, at any time, then the car is too perfect.
ya gotta keep em in the road!
dan

 

--SinisterKustom

I think that pretty much says it all! I might add that if you throw money at it instead of doing it yourself you're probably straying into the world of billet a bit.

 

Touche. That is something that doesn't get talked about here much.

Everyone on this site is looking back. All of us. All this yapping about originality and something being fresh, it's all rhetoric. Obviously we all have something in common, our love of the old. We admire and sometimes worship the pioneers of hotrodding and early racing. And we write about wanting to be like them and do what they would have done, and build and drive the kihd of cars they would. But...

We are not like them. Or probably more to the point, they were not like us. One might even speculate that they would consider us a a bit lame for using old shitty parts and talking so much about it. But the main difference between us is that those folks that we emulate were looking forward. Way forward. They did everything in their power to move ahead as fast as possible in order to make their rods as fast as possible. The cars they used weren't employed because they were classics. They were cheap, easy to get, and a lot smaller and lighter than the 'new' cars of the time. If we were really doing it how they did it, we'd all be hunting Pintos, Gremlins, and K-Cars and modifying them with whatever the latest, Asian nuke powered, powertrain is. If you think about it, the kids with their Drifters are closer in spirit to the rodders of old.

We as members of the HAMB with our rides and projects, in the grand schemes of things, are paying tribute to the innovators of the past. They were for their times, hip and modern. We are throwbacks. Maybe just as hip (we try), but certainly not modern.

Are traditional hot rods getting too perfect? Probably too well built, but as this thread has already stated, we all try in our own ways to get it 'right'. But from our 2008 point of perspective it may not be possible to be perfect.

PS. Great thread by the way. You HAMB'rs are sma-art. Who knew?

 

Well said. I wonder how many HAMB members are ready to accept the facts as stated above.

 

BLASPHEMY!

You're right by the way. And no, we are not hip. We are no hipper then Civil War reenacters...though some think they are...

 

Traditional rod's being built today are not unlike the ISCA 3 season repeat show cars. You know the type. The ones where the car started out nice looking but the owner could not afford a new car so he changes the car each year for a new, different look and by the 3rd season they looked goofy and botched.

The L'il Beaver '35 Ford from the 60's is a prime example.

The only problem is the builders today are going straight to year 3. Today we have traditional rod's that don't know what they want to be or what era they are in We have rod's incorporating both '70's tunnel rams and '40's style wire wheels. Don't forget the overused mexican blankets, bomber and tractor seats, tractor grills, bodies scraping the ground, way too low roof chops...all cartoon caricatures of how the car's actually looked in the 50's and 60's.

Guy's are throwing out tried and proven combinations and trends just to be different and innovative(at least they think they are) but what we have truly ended up with is 20% of the cars built recently look just right but most look like botched abortions.

 

Ditto that. Cept I kinda like funky tractor grills on Rusto-rods.

Trivia question... what was the first Rat-rod? The Beverly Hillbilly's flat bed, of course! What "TV / movie" builder did that, Barris? Gary

 

Hot rods need to be driven to be appreciated. My buddy has a 50 Lincoln thats out of this world. I bet it doesnt have a 100 miles on it. Whats the use? Drive em keep m road worthy. Noones gonna notice the imperfections at 80 mph.

 

My Dad's old coupe was a dirt tracker. He built it with this theme in mind- build it cheap, light, fast as you can afford, and strong enough for you to have the balls to drive the crap out of it. Pretty was okay, but affordable was more important.

The torch and the stickwelder worked miracles out of those junkyard parts. Thankfully the car became obsolete before it was wadded up.

Even rough as it is, people love it because it is real.

 

One of the best threads I've ever seen here, and who knew there were so many philosophers and wordsmiths among us. My humble observation/question is... as the Punk movement challenged and defied the established orders in music, art, morality, culture and fashion in the 1970's, have the Rat Rodders decided to challenge this established order? Are the Rat Rodders reacting to the notion that "traditional hot rods and customs" are too perfect now.
Rat rods may just be the new ripped jeans and safety pins worn as face jewelery in their challenge to the old car culture.

 

“Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence.”



Vince Lombardi

 

I feel that is what seperates us from the "OTHER" crowd. SOme may want to take it to the level that you are talking about and some may not have the talent or knowledge to do so. EVERY memorable rod I have ever seen were the ones that you just knew there was a ton of effort put into. Money is often confused with ability and it is easy to confuse the two. It is the details that really make a hot rod/custom what it is. Take a look at the cars on ther forums(i wont waste my breath in naming them), yeah, they are chopped and channeled and smoothed and shaped, but they are cobbled together messes when it is all said and done. I have learnd recently that it takes time to realize a vision and some peoles vision requires very close attention to the "little things". I dont belive they are to perfect, just as close to the builders vision as possible. The fad of having a rusted out beater that is put together slobbingly will die out just as fast as it arose. Having a nice car that you built is way cooler tahn having three piles of junk that you fashioned together because you were too caught up in the moment of what everyone else is doing.

 

It's all about the big picture... Most of the time those tiny little imperfections, are just leaving something how you found it is what gives the car a certain character that you can never reproduce.

 

Some of us are old enough to remember certain things. Maybe some were even inspired way back when and now have the means to go for it. Same spirit still burning, same idea still aching to get out of your head. Better and easier approach as I said earlier. I don't call that a throwback or a tribute. I call that the "perfection" that was started in the topic. I call that the "...you know it when you see it..." car that stops you dead in your tracks and you can't point out one single thing about it. And yes it does happen with every genre of hot rods and kustoms, but ours is focused on tradition.

In all reality though, isn't what we call traditional really just keeping with a certain style? Can anyone truely define that style? No. If it were defined what a boring and lame life we'd all lead. I love a chopped 40 Merc, hardtopped n all, but how many have we seen now? How many are fucked up and how many are "exactly right" as in those beginning proportions? How many Westergaard 36 Fords are there? Talk about raising the bar, I got 2 words for ya...Cole Foster. Even with the modern motor I'd call it a perfect example in our world of traditional hot rods and values.

Isn't that the kind of thing we're talkin about? Anything else is and always will be...restoration. In many cases, re-creation. And there's nothing wrong with any of it as far as I'm concerned. There is a lack of soul in the rust-bucket OSR junk that leaks through, but that's off the original topic.