HEMI Tech: Camshafts.. new? Regrind? solid or Hydraulic?

The age old question remains, How bad do you want one??? If you want a catalogue part go back to a shiverlay. I just got off the phone with Jerry at Crower Cams and they can and will make a Desoto roller. Cheap? NO...$600 in batches of 5 parts; Available? YES, 0ne month turn time.

 

From My Post before last...very first line..."They (Chet Herbert) said that a new cam from one of their masters (steel blank DeSoto roller) shouldn't be more than $300-$350."...
If I can get ONE made (a DeSoto Roller) from Chet Herbert for between $300-$350, why in the world would I want to pay $3,000 for five cams? I guess I'm missing something, somewhere...

 

Hey scooter www.willysreplacementparts.com supplies after market cams for any duration (or so what there web site says) for chryslers.

 

B-Ray,
The cams they will grind for customers (DeSoto cams) need a core from the customer, and are regrinds. New Chrysler (392) cam blanks are readily available..

 

Thanks! Yeah, that guy has good stuff. I ran across it one day looking at Willys. I think I added it to the resource page... I think. I need to go and look again.

 

Dang this sound like Phil" The Hemi King of South Aussie"

About time you brought your Hemi Know how here"

Grunt

 

Everybody want the max cam,including me,what the max cam for a street 392,muncie,10/1,crager 4x2 intake with 97s,stock heads,dont mind solid if the benifits out way the negitive,thanks quinton

 

Regrinds. Regrinds receive the same treatment as new cams. There is also a feeling by some me included that the old cores are better metal not to mention that they have stood the test. There is no more limit in a regind measurably than a new core. First lets talk about how a regind is made. This also applies to a new cam as well. No cam can have a lobe higher than its bearing diameter since it wont go in the engine if it does. Stock cams are usually right about there as are new cores. The lift comes from the DIFFERENCE between the base circle and top of the lobe at its highest point. The actual size of the lobe is not really relavent for most cams we would want. You should know that all cam manufacturers of record offer a cam regrinding service. That should tell you something. Cost wise. It is not cheaper and in most cases usually about the same or sometimes a bit more than new. Why would one want a regrind then you ask? Well sometimes you have no choice. For instance i used to do Classic boat engines for my brother . Often they were Chrysler Crown marine sixes. He would always want a bit more than the next guy so i found an old dude at Crane Cams years ago who knew those engines and had a master for this application of a hotter cam. The results were wonderful. No one can understand why Dons Chrysler flatheads work so much better and I aint gonna tell them. So that is one reason Cams are not available for the negine you are working on.
Another time I was involved in a Vintage Stock Car project with a 250 chev six. I was in charge of designing the engine combo and the machining. I had a grind I choose put on the stock cam core by a friend with a cam /crank grinding shop in Tornoto. Results? Second overall for the year in their first season fo racing. Car has been in museums , raced at IRP in Ind. and is now being raced successfully in vintage racing in Florida. (hint, look for the number Four A..........) The grind i needed for this combo wasnt avialable. My friend knows enough to trust me and does what i want. A commercial manuafacturer would first not have had the grind master i needed and secondaly in all likelyhood would not have done it for me anyway. On top of that I KNOW that no one else will get this grind. My friend protects my stuff and has for 30+ plus years.
Another situation is when the grind you want has been discontinued. For years we ran a special Hydraulic Cam from a popular manufacturer. It was a great cam making excellant power but never ever hurting the valve train. We even use it as a check cam when sorting a new combo because we KNOW it wouldnt give trouble ever. The manufacturer was bought out in the 1970s and the new owners immediately discontinued that and a few other grinds. As soon as I learned that I pulled a cam out of one of our engines and sent it to a company to have a master of that grind made. I have been getting cams of that master for almost 35 years. I usually get three made at a time. The grinder has now retired but so have i so it is a moot point now. It was the only way to get the cam I wanted. AND BTW I have not ever had a regrind fail and I have used many of them.
Hydraulic or solid. Solids always above 7000 RPM because quite simply the hydraulic cant go there (yet) Below 7000 and right to it I always use hydraulic cams for two reasons. One I want all the lift i can get. If an hydraulic cam advertises .510 lift I get the whole .510 lift minus about .006 that is soaked up as the hydraulic lifter absorbs the sudden shock. So, if you want, a net valve lift of .504" If i buy a solid of .510" , that is .510" lift a .000 lash. Unfortunately no solid cam runs at .000 lash but usually somewhere between .024 and .032 valve lash leaving me with .510- .024 (at best) = .486" lift. Dont fight me here guys. Just go look at your cam cards. It is there in black and white for all but maybe one manufacturer who uses an average of .020 to rate his solids.
Secondly because a solid has valve lash the lifter must be slowly slid up under the pushrod and everything snugged up safe before the heavy lifting comes. That uses up about 7 degrees and at the other end it has to be let down so it desnt bounce which adds a few more non power producing degrees to the duration. A hydraulic cam can get right at it and other then the intial "omfph" which cost about .006 it spends almost all its time making power. Not sucking up valve lash.
Here is a practical comparision. As some know I did a lot of work with 440 engines of the affordable type. We ran some 23 cams over the years and it took a cam of 253 @ .050 duration hydraulic to do what I wanted. A switch to solids required a grind of 268 @ .050 to equal it plus the extra lift to make up for the valve lash.
Rollers are the ultimate. Powerful beyond comapre but expensive at every step. Steel core required. Bronze dist gear required. Rolller lifters are about 4 to 5 times the cost of solids. Valve springs have to be superstrong and often that requires a much better pushrod as well. These are some of the things I have learned after 40 plus years doing this. Hope it helps.
BTW If I am doing a mopar I always call on Jim Dowel a Racer Brown, in Baltimore. For new cams they are great. They have some grinds that have no peers. Expecially for mopars. Even though they have been around for awhile a few are not comparable with anyone else believe it or not.
Don

 

Jim, at Racer Brownn IS the man! He, and Chet Herbert, are the ONLY ones to go to for true and correct cam info. As a matter of fact, it was Jim who dug up the roller cam for my DeSoto...made by Chet Herbert, YEARS ago. They are both Masters of their craft. By the way, Chet Herbert STILL has his masters that go all the way back to his first...

 

345 DeSoto, That's great news I to have been searching for a cam for my 330 desoto since i bought it , I was getttin alittle stressed out since i also shelled out some coin for that custom intake from 38 mopar_fan . So for the lifter "Late LA parts" (please clarify) will fit in the 330 desoto with no problems?

 

As for Regrind , i'll put my .02 in and from past real world experience iv'e been through mulitiple cams and lifters due to 2 reasons when the cam is hard face most of the time the surface is too hard and i will eat up the lifter and if it's too soft say goodbye to the cam . I'll tell you these cam are in my v-twin but were talking it makes all its power at 3200rpm the rod is 7" long so it just like a car motor . right now the combination is a custom one off billet cams from Yamaha research and ceramic lifters & titanium push rods . Iv'e been through many headaches over regrinds but i'm sure most car guys are not goin to abuse there cars as much .

 

It's not very often I hear negative things about cam regrinds. It sounds to me like the experiences you have had are related to the person doing the regrind. A good reputable cam regrinder would know exactly what hardness the camshaft would need as would know how to achieve it. The other factor is the valve spring. I'm guessing if you have a valve spring that is too heavy you could see adverse effects similar to what you have mentioned. Again, this is information that a good cam grinder can provide you. Obviously it's important to match up the rest of your valve train to the regrind. Don't get me wrong, not saying that's trully the case, but it just seems like there shouldn't be problems with this process if it's done correctly. It's been done for years.

 

DRFREEZE - I contacted Herberts this summer, and spoke to his son, Donny Johanson. He told me that they could grind just about any cam I wanted , if they had the Master...and chances are they did. Further, he identified the DeSoto roller cam that I have (dug up for me by Jim Dowling at Racer Brown dragonfishone@verizon.net) as one of his Dad's (Chet) early cams, and said that they have ALL the Masters for EVERY cam that they had ever cut...going back to the begining of the business. http://www.chetherbert.com/contact/contact.html

Next thing is the "LA" series engine's roller lifters. These are the 318-360 "LA" Series engines, and I'm not sure if they are the B or RB series engines. However, I know that Comp Cams and others produce retro rollers for the LA 318-360 engines. These are NOT the 318 engines of later production (1987-present?), which I BELIEVE are the "Magnum" engines.
http://www.compperformancegroupstor...re_Code=CC&Product_Code=8920-16&Category_Code=
http://cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&action=partSpec&partNumber=69532-16&lvl=3&prt=117
These lifters will NOT drop into the Chrysler 354/392 lifter bores, because the link bar is not long enough. They will also NOT drop into the Dodge Hemis, because the link is too long. However, I have heard (77RR) that they are a "drop-in" for the DeSoto engines, as the 318-360 later engines shared a number of the same internal engine measurement with the DeSoto's. The WORST case is that you would need to modify the link on the lifters to fit. http://www.webrodder.com/article.php?AID=171&SID=60

I have included all the info I have on this. I have the Herbert DeSoto roller cam, and when I "Snow Bird" it back north this Spring, I will be using the "LA" rollers...whether the links need to be modified or not. There are just 2 things that keep the prices/desireability of the relatively plentiful low deck DeSoto Hemis down...lack of cams and lack of good intakes. The blocks are engineered with all the same beef, internally, as the bigger Chrysler Hemi's and with intakes becoming available, and a little leg work having cams made, these engines will be screamers. I will be topping mine off (291) with the 6-71 I've just finished accumulating all the parts for. Hope this helps...

 

BTW. When I did the 55 new Yorker Hemi for my brother I had the 340 dodge stick grind put on the old 331 hemi core. I was happy withthat for cruiser cam. It brought the hemi into the modern age. To be hinest back then cams were few and far between for thse motors but now thereare several offering and when helpingmy pal last summer do his engine (331 for a 41 willys ) we bought on from one of the Modern old hemi companies. It was basically an Isky cam and that was what he wanted. DON

 

As an aside, I just got a HELL of a deal on a set of the "LA" rollers, so one way or another I'll know for sure if they're a "drop-in" or not...

 

I just checked the Hemi Guide and the lifter bores are the same . Sweet! as for the whole regrind thing if some people actually read the post and not jump to conclusions. I was just stating what iv'e been through and yes multiple cam manufactures made my cams . so that's why i'm not bad mouthing anyone that's what research is for hense the use of Ceramic lifters . Like i said before not many of hot rodders are going to do 500 + 1/4 mile passes per year on there motor like i do . regrinds are just fine for the application .

 

Quinton, On /in a recent rebuild we used this profile, and it turned out to be a very nice hot street cam in a 4-spd car:
Engle, split pattern, EP 22/25 solid lifter
Intake; lift .492 dur 277 (238 @ '50) lash .018
Exhaust; lift .507 dur 280 (244 @ '50) lash .020
lobe center @ 114

No doubt a similar profile is available as a hydraulic if desired.
Engle Cams #310-450-0806

Please remember that going past the .480 lift mark requires checking and double checking clearances around the rocker arm, retainer and of course the operating range of the spring itself. The oem recommended installed spring height is 1.2 open and 1.7 closed which equals a max opening of .05" which then limits cam lift unless other work is done. Be very cautious about simply deepening the spring seat area so that a taller spring can be used...the metal thickness in the seat is not great from the factory and must be sonic checked.
If you want to get carried away then consideration can be given to relocating the rocker arm shafts, using bee-hive springs with smaller diameter retainers, longer valves, and on and on.....
All it takes is money, how fast do you want to go??

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The bores are the same, for sure, but the big mystery is, is the distance from the centerline of one lifter bore to the centerline of the one next to it. If they are the same for the DeSoto and the LA engines, then the Genie is out of the bottle!...

 

let me know! i'm in the same boat , so now what about a bronze gear for distributor? same as a LA?

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SB-B...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories Note that they fit the 345-392 distributors...same as Dodge/DeSoto Hemi's...

 

...bronze gear same as A-LA...


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All this info is getting all us DeSoto guys one step closer. One more item...if the pushrod length needs to be modified, Smith Brothers http://www.pushrods.net/index.html is a really good choice.

 

we should keep this goin! I talk to these guys said they'll do complete rebuild and ajustable for about $525 http://www.rockerarms.com/

 

I must have really screwed up because I've been running a stock distibutor gear on my roller cam for 43 years. What kind of problems am I going to see?

Super strong valve springs just mess up the valve guides and put flat tires on your rollers. If you're building an all out racer, use 'em, but if you're building a street motor, lower the spring pressure and set the rev limiter accordingly.

 

If your roller is that old it might be a cast core, lucky you! Billet steel gears simply eat away at the cast gear faster than the bronze gear, so if you have a billet roller you might pull the intermediate shaft and inspect the gear teeth, if there are any left...

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Ummmm, isn't it the other way around? The stock gear will eat up your expensive billet cam?

Put in a bronze gear so that I can hook a tow strap to your car that's sitting on the side of I-80 because your distributor gear is toast.

Been there, done that. Been the tow vehicle, that is. Aluminum flywheel, 12.5:1 compression and a roller cam, to boot. So much for high tech.

 

I've heard those broze gears have a short life & puts a lot of bronze floating in the oil.

 

WOW! Awesome! I've heard good things about those guys, actually. Cool!

By the way, sorry if I came across wrong above. Stupid internet. Wasn't implying anything. Mostly just said that to "stand up for" the concept of cam regrinding.

 

no problem . Where all here for he same reason and it's like the normal bench racing session . i'm new the Hamb and have a great respect for all you guys and your opinions good,bad or indifferent.

 

The big reason I didn't go with a regrind is because I didn't want to fool with adjustable push rods. On the other hand, since i'm going with a roller cam/lifters, I'll need to have custom push rods (Smith Brothers) made ANYway...so I'm not really any farther ahead. Unless you consider the fact that I'll have a better performing cam than a flat tappet regrind...