History Why the American Automotive Industry Failed, and Continues to Fail: W. Edwards Deming

I fixed your post above..

US car companies are losing because they don't listen to their customers and are top-heavy with management. It doesn't help that the unions are strangling the auto manufacturers. Nobody needs $40.00 per hour to install lug nuts.

"American" cars are made in Korea, Japan, Canada, Mexico and the U.S.A. People just don't seem to realise that cars are built by global companies nowadays.

Hell, the Toyota Camry is made in Ontario and we have to pay IMPORT TAX on it. How screwed up is that? The Camry doesn't even exist as a model outside of North America.

Shawn

 

I have a Toyota steering box in my Ford now-- is that what they mean?

 

Bob, not very impressed. Seriously, read next time before you post.

 

As I suspected, you didn't read any of what I posted. You popped in and ran your mouth.

Please next time read.

The catchy title is to bring you in. The information is there to help you form an educated opinion, this is not east vs. west vs. euro, but a quick history lesson of what is important.

ex...how many points does Deming make? and how are those points applicable across so many industries?

 

yes I too noticed that bob didn't know what 'european' cars the US companys owned.

really??

maybe you should read a bit more too

http://www.toyota.com.au/camry


also sold well in south africa, asia and the middle east.

but regardless the worlds screwed.

if you want to know about toyota stuff and philosophy pm 'carps' he's pretty high up in their world and can give you alot of details on their work ethic across the globe.

 

Thing that strikes me reading the original post is a lot of those concepts could be applied to any company - for example, the chowderhead running eBay currently, could learn a lot from Deming.

The situation these companies are in right now with too many trucks for no buyers and not enough small cars is more lack of planning for the future, it shouldn't have taken too much genius to see the potential for any combination of economic failure and oil price increase to cause people to want to buy more small cars and not so many trucks.

 

Man, this is one interesting subject! Lots of good info, has me wondering how somebody with a high school education (me) understands what's wrong, while others that spent years going to college, etc. DON'T. Oh well.
Several years ago we were intro'd to Lean Six Sigma (LSS) where I work, a sort-of procees improvement concept intended (IMO) to streamline any process thru elimination of unnecessary steps in order to reduce time without sacrificing quality. To keep this short, we were given a process to work & see if improvements could be made to it. We spent weeks on it and came up with what we thought was an improved process that could easily be implemented. We presented it to our "sponsor" (mgmt). Our process improvement was flawed, it wasn't correct as presented, perhaps you should -----, or maybe you could -----... this list of "why it won't work" seemed nearly endless. Seems they already had an answer to our project that wasn't same as our results! This concept (process improvement) can and will work, but only if embraced by those who have a desire to make it work. I've seen it work in production plants. Very similar to why Deming's and other managment tools haven't worked - not that they don't, as much as some don't want 'em to work. Anybody else had similar experiences?

 

I knew about Deming when I was a 11 y.0. kid in Detroit in the the 70's (I guess I heard about him on the news or something... I was a weird kid) ... What we lack is leadership, and from what I see being taught as "Leadership" is actually a perversion of Deming called "spread the blame as far and wide as possible"... The more of these new "Leaders" we get in leadership positions, the further down the shitter we'll go. The term "shared responsibility" is an oxymoron.

I work with a lot of data now (public education), and it's frustratng as hell because we collect the data, we look at the data and decide which data makes us look the best and present charts to the "Leadership", and then we ignore the bad data... or we ignore the data that doesn't agree with a higher up's pet project, or the findings of some flavor of the week "expert" they just paid $50K to.

I should go back and be an graphic artist again.

Shifty is exactly right, Kingdoms...

 

Lee Iacocca's book "Where Have all the Leaders Gone?" is pretty good. I haven't read the whole thing yet but intend to. And I get a real kick anymore about how leaders are chosen, even at my lower level where I work. Managament offers courses to its newbies on how to interview, but NOT on how to lead or manage. They learn the buzzwords needed to get a promotion, but to hell with knowing what those words mean, or how they work. Seems they want followers, not someone who might actually challenge them. Potential leaders are stifled or silenced due to managements unwillingness to allow 'feather rufflers' into leadership positions. Pretty sad.

 

Simply, Deming works when everyone is rowing the boat in one direction. Such as in a war blistered country trying to heal itself.

Deming does not work when you have a series of mini-kingdoms and personal agendas. Hmmm, who would have those?......

Now that Japan has long since turned the corner, most in the know will tell ya that the Japanese have begun to bastardize Deming with their kingdoms and agendas.

I fear this thread has no real future other than to allow colorful expressions of how 6 sigma philosophy has failed in their own workplace, or how bad "the greedy bosses" or "the lazy union" are. Which doesn't apply to traditional cars.

 

I rode Japanese motorcycles for ten years before buying my first Triumph Bonneville. I did approx five miles on that thing in the six months I owned it. After trying to do work on the motor I was so frustrated by the CRAP engineering and design, compared to Japanese bikes, that I threw it to one side in frustration and disgust.

That was how the Japs defeated the British bike industry: they used intelligent engineering and production techniques. They invested time and money in their bike design. They used modern and efficient production methods.

The Brits, be it government, management, whatever, just stuck their heads in their asses and watched their once world-beating motorcycle industry fall apart.

Before WW2 the UK had 3 times more motorcycle producing companies than the rest of the world put together, but thirty years later they were down to a handful of ancient companies producing yesterdays designs.

 

You are correct, sorry, my bad.

What I was trying to explain was that the Camry doesn't exist in Japan. It's a model they developed specifically for export. I didn't realise that they were available in Oz and other places as well.

A friend of mine is one of the higher ups for Western Canada in Toyota, that's where my Camry info came from. He has a very nice 1969 Corolla Sprinter in his garage as well.

Thanks.

Shawn

 

Deming became successful by telling people what they already know, but had not the will or sense to do without supervision.
Which of those principles is a strange and new thought to anyone here?

He "helped" them in the same way that a 500 lb. woman is "helped" when she reads a diet book.
She already knew the "secret" (put down that donut), but placed no value on it until someone she respected (i.e., took her money) said the same thing.
This is the same dead end that says "there is no morality without religion": you already know these things, but will not behave accordingly without the oversight of a man wearing a strange costume.
This was Freud's excuse why psychiatrists charge too much: you only value things if they're painful to you.

 

Deming's ideas are usually the hardest for leadership to swallow. The underlings have to be told there will be no punishment for deviating (in the name of efficiency) from the process set forth by leadership.

And all this shit is well and good but it all goes out the window but it's every man for himself when the layoffs start. Shifty's Kingdoms come into play.

 

The most important part of free trade is the right of the consumer to buy whatever the hell they want with their hard earned cash. Supporting US companies that can't seem to build good product is not free trade. That is blind stupid corporate welfare that doesn't do anybody any good in the end. That is just basic capitalism that this country is built on. No need to whine and complain when you are getting your ass kicked by others with better products. They are losing and instead of crying like babies, asking for government hand outs and complaining about their employees, they need to get their shit together and start winning by making better products that people now need and want.

Free trade or no free trade, the fact is US companies products are not as good regardless of any cost considerations. If they were half the price of imports, they might still be a hard sell, because honestly, they are only about half as good. If they products were actually better, I am sure enough people would be willing to actually pay more for them. Kind of like paying more for good food at a local restaurant verse the crap down at McDonalds. Asking people to pay more for less is just not free trade and not capitalistic and kind of unAmerican really. it is actually more American and more capitalistic to support companies that make better products for less. American companies love to promote world markets as long as they work for them, but then don't seem to like it when it doesn't. Pretty hypocritical really. And don't think the US government and American companies haven't and still don't do all they can to leverage situations to their advantage and against foreign competitors. Just as the foreign companies and countries do otherwise. That is just part of the game of capitalism.

Us companies need to start designing and marketing better products for the future we are all going to have to live in and they better start doing it fast. It really boils down to a matter of vision and willingness as far as I can tell and I just don't think they have it at the top to succeed. The bad news is the top needs to make the decision to replace themselves to survive and that isn't likely to happen. Kind of like removing your head to cure brain cancer. Sadly, I think they have terminal brain cancer.

The worst thing I find disappointing in this whole conversation at large and in general is the willingness of American workers to bad mouth other American workers for just trying to make a living and earn as much money as they can. That is just a tool the top uses to gain leverage to manipulate the bottom half to their advantage. Fair enough, part of the game, but if you are in the bottom, stop being taken advantage of and promoting that bullshit. It is pretty hard to listen to people that make $100+/hour complain about people who make $40. If you want to suggest someone else take a pay cut, then you need to be prepared to start that process with yourself and I doubt too many will have the balls to do that.

 

Sema would appear to me as a European as Deming in practice. Highly motivated companies producing goods for home and export,The whole hot rod ideology is stay till the job is done to the best of your ability.

Conversion of this into the general work place is through motivational education as per the (Deming)Japanese model. Japan falls way short not in its manufacturing but in its democratic values

 

BTTT for the two things that run my life, hot rods and process improvement.

 

Definition of hypocrisy: Thoroughly enjoying driving and building your American hot rod while a foreign car sits in your driveway.

 

One other key distinction to making Deming work is job security.

Old school Japan has a til death do us part relationship between company and worker. But Japan is moving to more of an american hire & fire with the tides kind of employment.

You can't have successful Deming implementation with a company that lays off excess workers instead of finding other use within the company.

People are resistant to thinking & improving themselves out of a job. Until the american work culture changes, true Deming enlightenment is not possible.

We can rest a little easier though, because once Japan's economy takes another generational step toward free-market workers, Deming won't work there either.

 

No, that is called living in todays real world and being a smart consumer by not using what little hard earned money you do have to support failing companies that can't seem to get their shit together. If you want to participate in pity purchasing, feel free. I will do the same when they start making better products. Until then, I don't buy their crap. I don't buy crap, I don't care where it comes from or who makes it or how much it costs. I pay good money for good products - more if needed. If you want crap in your driveway fine. I don't want it in mine.

Side note: I kind of like the new Ford Flex for some odd reason and might even go check one out. But, I am of holding my breath for fear of being disappointed as usual.

 

Japan doesn't manufacture nearly as much as they used to.
Good luck finding new electronics actually made in Japan.
Even their car parts are outsourced to lower wage countries,like Korea.

But the rise of the Japanese manufacturing economy shows what is possible.

Now imagine if China ever gets their shit together.

 

Exactly, but they have enough pent up internal demand to meet prior to conquering the rest of the world.

 

Is the only reason you like hot rods is that they are American???

That's a terrific point that many people miss. When they first went to lean manufacturing, Toyota eliminated over 10k jobs and the workers walked. They ended up getting Toyota's president to resign, and in exchange for a one time job slash they won employment for life.

One more example of how the Big Three didn't understand how the system worked. They never see the forrest for the trees. Toyota implimented this process from the ground up, and it runs through their design and development, supplier relations, dealer networks, and manufacturing. Detroit tried it ass backwards, and the results have been less than favorable.

Right now Toypta is getting around all that by hiring temp workers en masse, then laying them off when things slow down...it doesn't seem like the public in Japan are thrilled about this development.

 

My personal feeling is that the American car companiers started going downhill after WWII. Reason being: we were the only country that hadn't had our manufacturing plants bombed into oblivion. That meant we were just about the only ones making anything, and certainly anything in quantity. So, to cars specifically: after WWII, the world was car-starved, most companies had not made a car since 1939-40, many cars were destroyed during the war, the rest worn out. The USA was making all the cars it could, and selling them faster than they could be produced. Shortly, it was discovered that quality was not needed as much as quantity. Profit was in the numbers - more = more. Quality could slow down the line, so, stop worrying so much about quality, make it 'good enough' and ship it out. (worst case was AMF-Harley-Davidson in the early 70's, ask the older guys at your dealer). Trouble was, this went on for nearly two decades before many of the foreign economies had recovered enough to produce more than was necessary for domestic needs, or, in the case of Great Britain, war debt had been paid down enough to reduce the need to "Export or Die".

So what happened?? The big three US manufacturers learned that they could bolt together just about any crap, slather some chrome on it and sell the living shit out of it. Planned obsolescence was in-built from the start - no rust-proofing at all, minimal quality control, and a HUGE advertising budget to convince you that you NEEDED a new car every two years. Certainly my father bought into "Bigger, Better' MORE!!!", for we had a new car every two years. And some of them were utter crap, but if you traded every two years, it wasn't so bad...

And what choice had you?? Foreign car dealerships were few and far between. The foreign cars themselves were rathaer staid (Citroën excluded, in the extreme), Mercedes being probably the best alternative, yet they looked 10 years old when you drove off the lot. They held up, sure, but how were you to impress the neighbors?? The British cars were built to a standard of "oh my god, we need money bad, how fast can we get this on the boat".

Sometime during this period, the US manufacturers learned about creature comforts. Highly effective heaters were first, followed by increasingly better air conditioners; power accesories, and a whole raft of things to advertise that were more icing than cake. But they were much more visible than an improved lubrication system, or better braking, and easier to explain than independent rear suspension.

This all came to a very gradual not-quite-ending (yet), once a few folks bought imports, then their neighbors saw and rode in the cars and bought; the importers got better and more dealers; they sold more, and more neighbors saw and rode and bought; they worked to improve quality and started to look more mainstream AND current; more people bought; advertising was discovered; MORE people bought.

Now we are at today. Its now very hard to convince people that you have really changed, because that last Toyota was a really good car, never broke, and is still worth a LOT of money. Tell me again WHY I should buy a Ford/GM/Chrysler??? These are decidedly NOT car people, these are people who really want a toaster to drive to work, a toaster that never needs service, and that brings a good buck come trade-in time.
BTW, anyone recall the utterly disastrous Merkur promo on the Scorpio?? Where they tied resale value to the equivalent Mercedes?? Boy howdy did Ford lose their shirt on THAT one.

Just to back up a bit, and go two wheels: recall that Harley asked for (and got) protective tariffs in the early 80's (the Japs were dumping, that was proved). They (HD) did improve their product (I bought one), but not that much, it still wouldn't go 100,000 without work, sometimes a lot of work, but it WAS better than an AMF, which was even odds it wouldn't even crank when fresh out of the crate. But what they DID do, to a far greater extent, was advertise their product into a lifestyle. Now you HAVE to have that Harley to be that person who is too cool for just about everyone. This was far more successful than R+D on the bikes. But to be honest, it's a lot harder to advertise a car into a lifestyle, yet Ford's doing a damn good job with the Mustang.

This is just my take,
Cosmo

 

Deming... you young guys read about this man. He did warn the American Companies but they ignored him.
I fail to understand the allegiance to the American Car companies period.
Why do middle class Americans feel the need to buy American cars when the companies greed overshadowed the moral responsiblity to supply a quality product.
They didn't care that I really had nothing but problems with the cars I bought from them in the 70's and 80's. Not really....
Profits going overseas a concern???? why? they deserve it. They reinvest this profit in the American worker by expanding plants in the heartland. Giving us a quality product and a fair paycheck to buy it.
If you're 40 and younger you probably don't understand this feeling...
But if you raised a family in the 70's and 80's you would understand that 30% of your income went into buying and maintaining poor quality vehicles.
Would I like to see those companies improve and profit?? hell yes.. but I said all along its too late for them. They have been warned years and years ago and the investors are very rich (mostly Old Money) They are only concerned about their stock dividend. I say good riddens! They have no idea what its like for people like us.
Officially off my Soapbox.

 

Same goes for most of the people calling the shots in Detroit.
Not car people.

They figure ANY business can be run strictly by numbers.
And they only number they really care about,is the one that goes in their pocket.

Money now is worth more than money later.

 

I know. I have 3 good friends that work for Ford and make good money (all three are HAMBers as well) and it really bugs me that people are calling them out as lazy. (more in Tman's thread not so much in this one)

What would happen if YOU were offered a job to put lug nuts on a car for $40 an hour?

Can you honestly say you would turn it down?

Bitch about things all you want, but don't talk down people (and fellow HAMBers) for taking an honest job, working for an American company, to make a living.

 

Can't speak for Detroit but I spent 15 years in the electronics industry where Dr. Demmings was considered "God" . ISO 9000 , which is the world standard now , utilizes many of his priciples . Where would we be if not for people like him ?

 

hypothetically, would you still buy say a Chinese car if it were as good as a japanese car. But was built disregarding the basic human rights of the workers assembling it. Sort of slave labor if you will.

The point being at what price do you draw the line at quality/price.
because Deming must of disregarded certain conditions with in Japan during the 50,s that made his vision work there.

ergo, You buy American because you safeguard America and as a democracy its probably about as good as it gets........

 

I would not say lazy, not more so than any other industry. I think that it comes from a 2 part issue, that would kill any business. The Union vs. Company (this issue is starting to raise its very ugly head right now with the ILWU and the big shipping companies). The Union as it is today is an dinosaur. It's is seriously lacking survival techniques. Upper management is constrained by investors who want thier money now, basically fore going the future, for 15% net net now. Niether is pleasant.

I feel for the line worker, but the Unions have continously made it an all or nothing arguement for to long. Now they are faced with a very real problem and there is no easy way out. For business to function there must be an ability to ebb and flow with demand. Not just flow, everything else be damned.