Newbies: Flathead guide of death, read & heed

I found this online, while searching for flathead stuff. It's from Hot Rod Magazine.

New to flatheads? I STRONGLY recommend reading this cover to cover before posting in here. TONS of good info.

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hdrp_0511_ford_flathead_engine/flathead_parts.html

links:

http://flatheaddrag.com/links.html

http://flatheaddrag.com/flathead_basics.html

this is pretty cut and dry list of the initial questions that I have in this phase of my first flathead build. Hope I can help some others out.



enjoy!

 

I'm a bit su****ious of "340 hp on gas" from 8 psi.
No race engine ever got near that in the old days, with a bigger blower, more boost and methanol.

 

Here's some links, for quick reference, I have them saved to my desktop. Most are shown in the "Death List" above.

Does anyone have any knowledge of a list of Flathead Friendly machine shops throughout the US? I was thinking of posting them as well. This MIGHT alleviate a lot of the same old questions in here....

http://www.kanter.com/

http://www.northernautoparts.com/

http://www.flatheadjack.com/

http://www.reds-headers.com/

http://www.flatlanderracing.com/

http://www.fordflathead.com/cart/index.php?action=item&id=126&prevaction=item&previd=125&prevstart=

http://www.flatheads-forever.com/home/

http://flatheaddrag.com/

http://www.exeterautosupply.com/Docs/Offenhauser%20catalog.pdf

http://millscustoms.com/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=303910&highlight=flathead


TRANSMISSION STUFF Most of it is for T-5 links and info, but, might help...

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171291

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=169265

http://transmissionadapters.com/

http://www.thompsonsgarage.com/

http://moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2004/07/01/hmn_feature25.html

http://www.macsspeed.com/adapters_2.html

http://www.flatheadv8.org/t5-swap.htm

http://www.moderndriveline.com/Technical_Bits/t5_history.htm

http://www.5speeds.com/t5/index.html

http://pomoforacing.com/

http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/home/home.asp

http://ecihotrodbrakes.com/compact_underfloor_systems.html

http://limeworkspeedshop.com/

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65870

http://www.cornhuskerrodandcustom.net/parts.htm

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188665&highlight=34+coupe+frame


Well, that's about it for now. I'll Edit with brief expainations or ***les of each thread I posted when things slow down around here. Feel free to post anything I may have missed.

I plan to do a TECH on WHAT TO GET FROM THE JUNKYARD BEFORE YOU INSTALL Thread, when I get around to THAT....

 

Thank you for taking the time to do this.

I would also suggest taking that guide from Hot Rod (written by Tony Baron I believe) and using that as one of the many sources and not as a bible or the last word.

A lot of other thoughts on how to do it. Not all right, not all wrong just another way.

I also feel some of the HP ratings were a bit upped for the readers of that mag.

 

I have grown increasingly su****ious of ALL published dyno/horsepower in recent years...
Seems like every smallblock Chevy built produces 600 horsepower now, and flatheads are on the same curve of inflation. Ye Olde bragging levels were like 180--240 horsepower, a level that could blow a street roadster to 140...someone now with a 140 MPH '67 Camaro would probably claim 600 hp.
There has been a lot of progress, surely, but...nowadays no one is running alcohol in flatheads, or nitro/blowers which really bumped the numbers, AND I suspect much of the BIG progress in flathead HP has been in the twilight zone engines by Kloth and Flatdog and such, with secret combustion chamber/port/cam configurations not remotely like anything for sale. Many of the supposed very high power engines now are pretty basic in terms of using purchased cylinder heads, off the shelf cams, and 1952 style port& relief jobs. Really? On a real dyno? This stuff is VERY interesting to me, and I know there are great builders out there pushing up the results on both basic flatheads and supersecret flatheads, but I view most dyno numbers in the magazines as hype. I wish there was a way to ensure actual numbers with only conservative temp and pressure corrections...
And remember, horsepower is a COMPUTED number, based on running torque and RPM readings through a simple formula; the constants are such that below 5250 RPM, HP goes up only with torque, and the RPM's don't start to really stir the proceedings til the R's get beyond 5250...without blower or nitro, very few flatheads are producing beyond 5250, so HP numbers are inherently low.

 

I'd consider this the Flathead Guide of a Very Very Mild Illness, Perhaps a Stubbed Toe.

There is just so much out there to read, watch, learn, unlearn

Danny

 

Good dyno operators calibrate their dynos frequently - before and after any movement, before and after any upgrades, before and after any big-paying customer.

Dyno numbers are comparative - it's really only ever truly apples and apples on the same dyno with the same correction factors - which, by the way, are typically limited to correction to standard day/sea level.

All that said, I've seen unremarkable parts combos (with careful ***embly and some critical work in the chambers) crank out over 300HP with only 6psi pulley combos - on gas. I've seen dual purpose, but street-driven engines crank out over 330HP with 7psi pulley combos - on gas. I've then seen timeslips for these very engines that support those power levels based on weight.

 

Big numbers with blowers are real, yes...but there seems a sudden spate of one horse per cubic inch street FH engines without blowers...and up. This ***umes some pretty remarkable torque numbers on a low revving engine.
And I do think all the big magazines covering SBC's are using correction factors that simply amount to making up a bigger number than last time...kind of like Ford advertised power ratings in the fifties and sixties.

 

I always maintain that the dyno's used in the big mags have a Chevy switch on them, that adds about 50% to all the numbers. When they do a full-boogie rebuild and hop-up on, say, a 440 GTX and come up with 395 HP on an engine that was rated at 375 to begin with, then they turn around and put a chrome air cleaner nut on a 350 Chev and it tops 400, well, I call BS.

 

You'll only find a 400 horse 350 in an old magazine...the new carbon fiber aircleaner nuts have bumped them all to 600.

 

Thanks for starting this thread. SOme good stuff in the links.

 

Here are a couple more: http://www.midstateantiquestockcarclub.com/flat_tech.html
(Circle track stuff!)

http://www.flatheadv8.org/rumblest/intro.htm (This one is an EXCELLENT free book by an expert; scroll down to the bottom of that page and start clicking.)

 

I would like to know myself how many shop there are out there that have the equipment needed to work on them. I started buying special tools myself with the anticipation that there are none around me. The only one that I know of (from searching) is in Ohio. I would like to know if there are any any closer than that....IF I need one.

 

Some really good information posted as for resources.

When I started this flathead pilgrimage four years ago I never believed it would lead to where I am now. I think reading articles is OK, but I think a lot of the articles in magazines aare slanted one way or the other and not usually real world situations.
When I first started I bought/got every book I could lay my hands on about the flathead;

My favorites are:

Ford Flathead V8 Builders Handbook 1932-1953 by Frank Oddo

Tex Smith's The Complete Ford Flathead V8 Engine Manual by Ron Ceridono

How to Build the High Performance Street Flathead by Mike Davidson

Flathead Fever, How to Hot Rod the Famous Ford Flathead Engine by Mike Davidson

Flathead Tuning Manual by Mike Davidson

Blown flathead by Joe abbin

Nostalgia Rebuilding and Modifying the Flathead Ford V8 by Ron Holleran
and Ron's newest addition which I think is still available from Ron

Thunder Road Flathead Guide by Bill Sinclair

How to Build A Flathead Ford V8 by George McNicholl

And last but not least
Flathead Facts, A Comprehensive Look At Flathead Engine Dynamics Highlighting 400+ Dyno
Pulls, Learn What Works, Why It Works, How It Works by John Lawson (JWL)

So, if you are really serious about the flathead you need to get all the information available and these books have a lot, and JWL's book backs it up with 400+ dyno pulls.

The other thing you need to do is talk with knowledgeable people.
When I first started this flathead conquest I was fortunate to start out by talking with an expert, Rod Furtado who was an excellent machinest and truly great flathead builder. I also had the opportunity to sit down and talk with Barney Navarro. I have talked to Ron Holleran, Norman Frick and hope to spend some time with JWL next year. The flathead knowlege on this and other sites is staggering...........................so get out and meet the people, talk with them, pick their brains...........................because this knowlege base is not getting any younger, and when it is gone, it is gone!

My point is that there is much more real information out there, you just need to spend the time finding it and when you do find it.............absorb as much as you can.

I spent 20 some years in drag racing and never broke a record (came close a couple of times) but had one heck of good time and made some really great friends, but always said
"If you have big bucks you can buy the fastest car, but to break records you need to have brains..............................and if you don't have the big bucks or the brains...............then you need to find someone who does".

IMHO

 

Hmmm...haven't seen that stuff yet. I have seen a N/A dyno pull of 216HP out of a 284 with unremarkable parts that later pulled 305 with the 6psi blower on it. But even 200+ HP N/A seems significant given former "standards" It makes me wonder what the older dynos were calibrated to - it certainly wasn't digitally manipulated or computer controlled like modern dynos...

Great list of books & resources.

I really appreciate what JWL did with that book, but he really left me hanging - he never finished his ultimate engine, but the last torque figures showed something around 190lb/ft - which translates into no more than 190HP ***uming you keep it below 5250RPM (a sensible number for the flatty). His attention to detail is without peer, but it almost seemed like he did that in some areas and not others. Would have liked to seem him finish the trek he was on...

I think the flathead suffers more from myth, lore, and hype than any other engine out there. Most of the speed secrets remained secrets with deliberate mis-information leaked to maintain compe***ive edges. The stories of Crower grinding cams one after another & sticking them in engines to see what they'd do is part and parcel of the type of "cut and try" approach to what has become gospel in flathead circles. The mentality of "we did this and won races" does not necessarily mean you have the best combo - you just had a better combo than the other racers at that meet.

I think the modern folks like JWL and Abbin who do no-**** empirical research with flow benches and dynos, then back them up with runs at dragstrips and land speed courses, then take the time to publish this are the true modern-day heroes.

The most frustrating thing as a young guy is getting oldtimers to answer hypothetical questions. All to often you get brushed off with "so & so tried that & lost" so it's immediately brushed off as no good. They may have a favorite combo and make ***umptions about what most folks want/need and not want to stray from that. There's lots of pitfalls, but these old guys are still worth the effort to extract every bit of experience from their stories...

 

Well said Ernie.

 

We are also flathead friendly here.
www.mondello.com
Tennessee

Mike

 

I recently had the opportunity to view all of the dyno pulls on a very (to me) high dollar flathead. The engine had almost $20K in it.
Details:
313 ci (Custom 4 1/2" stroker crank, Oliver rods, Navarro high dome pistons and heads).
Unknown cam grind (flat tappet, an Isky of some type).
Very expensive port and relief, valves (unknown sizes) with small diameter valve stems
Hilborn fuel injection.
MSD ignition
Belond style headers

This engine had nothing but the best components. It spent almost 2 days on the dyno, getting the tune set up.
Results:
191 Hp @ 4200 rpm
274 #ft @ 3100 rpm

In my estimation, it ran like a tractor, but the customer was happy.

 

I been selling some of Joe Abbins Roadrunner blowers out of my shop, and when he was here a couple of weeks ago he was telling of a FH he had just dinoed turning out 300 HP on 5 lbs of boost! I forgot to ask the displacement or other details. How forgetful, getting old.

 

I suspect that modern dyno numbers are up because the measuring equipment is more precise. With better tools, comes better results.

 

That was the last one I saw - it was Bill Boomer's engine. I'm pretty sure it was a 284 with iron heads & 400Jr cam...

 

I watch Paul Schiefer do his 276 or 286, I forget,on his dyno, which by the way was an old water dyno with a scale, where you had to calculate the horsepower by reading torque and rpm and calculating horse power.

He could never get it over 235 hp with a bit of nitro in the methanol.

that was in 1947 or so, and he and Ed Stewart would to pull about the same hp from their v8s. Ed would do 132 in 32 highboy ,and Paul would do about 143 with 25 T.

Not much you could do to get more than that with those engines.

They made more speed by making lower lighter cars and not much by increasing horsepower.

Oh, I don't doubt that motors today are making more power than those days, but not in the flatheads unless they run 90% nitro or something.

Ed Stewarts car was his drive around town car and was not a lakes only car.


TraderJack

 

Does anyone know where to have an flathead resleeved? I have a 40 flatty with one bad cylinder.

 

Always cool to hear first-hand info from back in the day. Was this 235HP blown or normally aspirated? If N/A, those are impressive numbers - even for today.

What the folks have today that gives them the advantage is empirical data and computerized measurements on things like dynos. The guys with time, dedication, and money can do back-to-back dyno runs to find what works.

 

something like sequential TPI, this one makes 20hp across the range over it's best carb setup

 

Don't forget this link http://www.modelengineeringco.com/bellhous.htm

They appear to have bellhousings for Toploaders and Mustang T5's

 

There's no question that blowers (and nitromethane, in the past) are flathead magic as ways to overcome the tight spots in the intake flow; but for normally aspirated engines getting all their oxygen from just air...it is very hard to see what you can do about the intake port that will change things a whole lot. Filled water p***ages or giant tunnels for tubing don't count...neither streetable nor affordable!
I think in general that the focus on HP is slightly wrongheaded tunnel vision, perhaps. Nothing running out of air at 5,000 or so with falling torque at that level can mathematically produce much HP. Most agree that FH drag times for the stronger engines are better than HP readings will support and equivalent to OHV engines with significantly more power...which suggests to me that we should be studying the area under the torque curve. I think some like JWL are examining milder cams in this light...
Modern dynos can make RPM steps rapidly and capture readings quickly, bu that can't increase the maximums...I think rising actual readings can come only from patient minor development of ports, and perhaps there are bigger gains to be had in transfer area studies...anything big there, though, is not going to come from any of us who are using normal aftermarket heads, though! I think also that the dyno figures have become important to magazines and the speed industry, and are subjected to more and more hype, probably by abuse of correction factors.

Getting a '40 resleeved?? drag it here...I have the kit for replacing steel liners!

 

great stuff here I sure miss flatdog

 

Flatdog was at the leading edge of innovation in combustion chamber design.

 

God help me, I've almost got the balls to put mine back together.

~Jason