bad urethane experience-need info

not to make lite of this but it DOES explain a lot.
like EVERY body and paint guy i've ever met was either an alky or really religous...or just plain ****ed up.
and why 1 week turns into 1 year...

 

one of the symptoms of this stuff is, just after I speak, I find myself thinking "did I really say that, or just think it"- ever have that feeling ? must be the chemicals still in my system- but I am improving daily.

there's a lot of good info and points here- they took the lead out of gas and paint, and replaced the paint with urethane- which is as deadly as mustard gas used in WWI- this paint is NOT safe for home use- it should only be sprayed in a spray booth, with the user in a full suit and supplied air.

laws should be enacted, that unless you own a professional downdraft spray booth and supplied air suit, and have a license, you cannot buy the paint. Something like the same type of laws that are in effect for buying a full auto machine gun (I'm a big gun nut too and have a large collection, some semis, etc.)

the paint mfrs. aren't telling us the whole story, because it will hurt sales of the paint 3M is not telling us their charcoal cartridges aren't effective, because that would also hurt 3M sales- what we have here is corp. greed and a cover up going on

phosgene- I was doing mechanical work out of my friend's little 1-bay garage, a few engine jobs and cylinder head work. Vehicles were a 1972 Monte Carlo, 1973 Chevy truck, 1973 Caddy. This was back in the mid-1980's. Had to change a timing chain in the Monte, and swap an engine in the truck. I was heating the garage with (2) kerosene heaters at the time, it was mid-winter and about 15 degrees outside.

I had to remove the A/C system from car and truck, to gain access- and evacuated the freon to the atmosphere in the garage. It rose to the ceiling, made a weird hissing noise, and congealed like a white layer of fog/mist up in the ceiling area- like a carpet of white stuff. I saw that and about ****- I had chemistry in high school and knew I had created some sort of nasty *** chemical reaction. I ran for the door, just as I got outside had a very slight wiff of what smelled like ammonia but worse.

I believe I had created phosgene, by introducing freon to the kerosene heaters- or I had created some sort of liquid ammonia or chlorine gas.

Anyway, a few seconds after it appeared, it dissipated with another hiss- I opened garage overhead door and man door from outside, and windows, and ventilated the garage- and it was gone- no trace or smell

in my lifetime I've seen this phenom happen twice with freon- the second time I was ready for it

I had to remove A/C from cars many times afterwards, and always do that outside now.

 

agreed, a charcoal mask for urethane, is like bringing a knife to a gunfight, or putting a bandaid on cancer- the painter is going to lose that fight

3M gets $20/pair for replacement filters, and $30/ea for a complete mask. They sell millions of them. Being the paint industry went 95% urethane, there would be no market for those charcoal masks, if 3M admitted they were not safe for urethane. So they carry on this malarchy and lie, that the charcoal mask it good. It's not. The guy I know, who just had a blood transfusion, he shoots urethane with a charcoal mask- a "better" mask that costs $80. Obviously it's not protecting him.

suddenly we can get gallons of urethane w/catalyst from Eastwood, for only $90 delivered to your door. So now they are going to flood the market with the stuff dirt cheap- HOT RODDERS BEWARE- this stuff will kill you and hurt you. My advice is, DON'T BUY IT. Eastwood doesn't send you the MSDS stating "1 hour maximum for charcoal filters", until AFTER the incident occurs. I have heard from others that it's maximum 15 minutes with charcoal masks and urethane- and the filters are shot regardless 8 hours after you open them, even if you don't use them, they go away naturally from surrounding air/moisture.

Eastwood should state right the can label- SUPPLIED AIR ONLY - NO CHARCOAL MASKS WHATSOEVER- I have called Eastwood and told them, the paint put me in the ER.

most charcoal masks online now, have a disclaimer stating "not for urethane"- I was at Tru-Value hardware the other day, their respirator says the same thing right on the package, and it's dual charcoal filter.

My motto now is, urethane is overkill for painting cars. I'd rather just stay away from it, then try to protect myself from it. Many have used synthetic enamel or acrylic enamel with catalyst, that is not as bad as urethane. Urethane is DEADLY in aerosol form.

urethane was invented by the German Nazi regime scientists just prior to WWII, they painted their tanks/planes/ships with it- those people didn't care about human life, and actually relished in killing people. They didn't care about their own people spraying it either- there was many cases of deaths in the German industries making war materials before/during WWII from urethane- the product should actually be outlawed by modern standards, or severely restricted with safety rules, i.e. spray booth/supplied air/suit requirements- just like the nuclear industry. Urethane is a remnant technology invented by ****ed up Nazi scientists.

IMHO, 10 coats of straight black lacquer rubbed out still looks better to my eyes, than any urethane job- the lacquer will have deeper gloss and shine. Urethane has better holdout over years, but still doesn't look as good as a top notch lacquer job anyway.

 

here's the kicker- I did my research and was told I was safe with this mask, by 3M, a month before I used the paint, here's the email- I took their word for it- and got hurt !

I say **** 3M, and **** Eastwood, and **** urethane too



----- Original Message ----- Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: respirator/cartridges for spraying urethane paints w/isocyanate hardeners ?

>
> 3M generally recommends an organic vapor cartridge with a 95 cl*** particle
> prefilter for spraying paints and coatings, including those containing
> isocyanates. The 3M 7500 Series Respirator (7501/7502/7503 for S/M/L) with
> the 6001 Organic Vapor Cartridge, 5P71 P95 Prefilter and 501 Retainer is
> suggested. This ***embly offers protection up to 10X the OSHA PEL. Attached
> is a product file. Additional information, including where to buy, may be
> found on our website at www.mmm.com/Occsafety
>
> Regards,

 

Scrounger, you are done painting. And, how often are you evacuating A/C systems into the atmosphere? It's recoverable you know, and regulations regaurding recovery are there for a reason.

 

Great, there is a reason they want you to use an evacuator. All these things are dangerous, proper disposal of these chemicals is extremely important.

 

I only evac'd 2 of those A/C units- but that would happen on a regular basis at any shop- the regulations only apply to shops in the business, and there are NO regulations on private citizens in Pa. in respect to evac-ing A/C- perhaps you live in a highly regulated area in Michigan ?

we also have no exhaust emission tailpipe tests, only gas cap check/visual in our area

laws vary due to area

 

zman, do you really think every single mechanic on the planet recaptures freon ? our junkyards are loaded with thousands of cars that were evac'd to the atmosphere- I know dozens of mechanics, almost none of them do that- they vacuum it out, into the atmosphere- the old evac systems had no storage tank

perhaps in your area it's a major issue, here in Pa. it isn't

 

Yeah, I look like a Chinese Aviator in the shop now. 34 yrs. exposure to smoke, g***es, and haz. mat. in the Fire Dept. have taken their toll on me. Going to have to get some type of filtered mask for my welding hood as the little bit of smoke from welding gets to me. Getting old ain't for *****'s...

 

My neighbor across the street painted his prized VW in the garage a couple years ago.
Nice blue metallic urethane. Used a charcoal filter mask and window fan.
He went to sleep, woke up with back pain, wife took him to the ER.
Diagnosis was kidney cancer, Dr. said he had 6 months to live.
He died 3 days later.
You can still see the overspray in the kitchen.

 

Responsible mechanics , salvage yards and body shops all follow these guidelines. These are requirements of liscenseing for business. Its precisely this outlook that creates the situations that started this thread.

 

this is kinda funny, here you are jumping up and down screaming that there should be laws for paint. And then you turn around and condone just letting other dangerous noxious g***es loose in the atmosphere. Ironic isn't it. There are laws in place that are supposed to keep this from happening, the bad thing is they are only applied to shops. If I do A/C work in my shop by law I have to evacuate and store the freon or 134a. I can't just let it loose. But if you are an individual it doesn't apply. Same with paint. I have to have a booth, gun cleaners, dispose of it properly. But an individual is free from these regulations. At this point will just say the pot and the kettle are both black.

 

Remember seeing Charlie, at Boyds, wearing his Space Suit when painting ?

He is the only guy I've ever seen on TV wearing all the necessary protection.

 

Owch!..well my shop is not attached to my house, and I would have definetly protected my self, and made a booth with fresh air and ventilation..but Im going to keep the big painting jobs for someone who has the equipment and experiance.

 

So what is the recommendation for home painter? I've got 3 more to do in this life. I did a couple enamel with hardener, and just felt like trying to get flu next day. The next one without hardener no problem.

 

i was watching "living the Low Life"..on speed channel last night and some painter(forgot his name Not Skratch) and the host..that ***y gal (sorry bad with names..I hate TV)..they were both spraying paint..showing her how to do it, mixing and shooting flake and color and clear..all with out ANY protection.and not even in a booth...absolutly nothing on his or her hands, face, or body other than street clothes..
On National Reality TV..how errisponsible is that?
granted it was small stuff like a fender or tunk lid..but still

 

I agree with you on that.
I'm sure they are thinking about the fact that they want their smiley faces to be seen while they are on TV, but for all the hobbyist's who are watching, some are thinking, "well, if a professional that does it all the time can get away without using the right equipment, then surely I can too since I only spray once in a rare while."

Same with when you watch reality shows about metal fab with guys tack welding by just shutting their eyes for a second instead of using a helmet. It makes all the hobbyist guys think it is safe to do that too, but UV travels right through your eyelids.

 

the best paint to use for home use durability is acrylic enamel- either single stage or BC/CC

you could also use synthetic enamel, less holdout but good gloss out of gun, now only available in SS- at one time Dupont made a clear for it, but it's been discontinued

the best looking and easiest to spray and safest, would be acrylic lacquer, but then you would have to buff it out- you can still get lacquer from TCP Global- and local auto paint shops sell the Diamond Black color here still single stage

don't put hardeners in anything- and under no cir***stances use urethane

the old Japanese acrylic lacquer base/clear systems were actually really good paint too- color base, the clear on top- and buff the clear- but no hardeners and it's straight lacquer

as far as the solvents go, lacquer thinner always seemed less nasty than enamel reducer to my senses

 

'


freon to urethane, is not a valid comparison

but if you truly believe that evac-ing freon to the atmosphere is such a deadly problem, and you ended up in the ER from freon like I did from urethane, then by all means, start your own thread like I did, and see who replies

intuition tells me, good luck with that one

 

here's my ER discharge sheet- you won't get this from freon

personal info deleted for obvious reasons

to make an ****ogy in respect to one's health:

freon is a toy cap gun, urethane is an atomic bomb

 

on another note..how are these.."water born" types of paints..
i know nothing about them, and probably havent spelled it correctly..but i heard about them from a local panter dude..
how bad are they for your health? and how much of a PITA are they to use correctly?

would this be a more safety minded product for us DIY guys? and also for the guys now affected by the hazardous paint products that are being spoke of on this thread?

 

all the large large junkyards in Pa. are family owned and have been in business since 1950-60 era, they don't have to get licensed, they are "grandfathered" in- they don't issue any new licenses for junkyards here

you're thinking in respect to highly regulated states like California, or your own home state- most states are not that strict on freon- I have 2 window AC units, I could but open emit to the atmoshere, then s**** at local salvage yard- no one would care- if you called EPA or DER in Pa., they'd laugh at you

Michigan and California, are not Pa.- BIG difference in emission laws

it's perfectly legal from emissions standpoint, to spray urethane at your home- but it's a dangerous thing to do, for your health- you and Zman are getting those 2 aspects confused-

urethane paint is legal-I had it delivered to my house by UPS- but it's not safe

2 different things we're talking about here

reason- no one gets killed from freon, the "ozone layer depletion" story is basically BS that was promoted by the green environmentalists

people did/do get killed and maimed by urethane though- quickly too- which posts by painters here have proven. It's not a nebulous concept like the "ozone layer" and "global warming"

bronchospasm, is bronchospasm- it wasn't causaed by ozone

it was caused by urethane paint

again, if you believe freon is a major health hazard (that's ****ing laughable, actually)- by all means, start your own thread about how dangerous it is, see who replies

 

I'd say your neighbor already had the cancer, you can't get cancer in 3 days, it's a long term progressive disease that develops over months or years- he already had the cancer, and the urethane greatly aggravated it, knocked his immune system down, and the cancer then went rampant and killed him

or the shock of knowing about kidney cancer, he gave up and died- that happens too, people stop fighting the disease and don't want to live

my dad and father in law both died of lung cancer, from smoking cigarettes and occupational asbestos- dad was 66, in law was only 47

I went to MD today, he told me good news, any really serious **** would have showed up within 2-3 days of exposure. He said my lungs sound clear, and I don't need the inhaler, stop it if possible. The inhaler is a steroid that actually has bad side effects and is addicting- it makes me dizzy.

the best way I can describe the recovery program, is on a scale of 1 to 10, "1" feeling the ****tiest the day it happened, "10" being normal- I get better by 1/2 or 1/4 a point each day- the progress is very, very slow. I feel much better but still not 100%- walking is a bit unstable, eyes not quite right, sleep is disturbed at night, chest still feels funny. One sniff of any cleaners and it comes back instantly, my chest gets tight. My wife cleaned the couch and chairs with Spray Spot cleaner yesterday, and my chest got tight and I had to use the inhaler. It's now been 9 days since the first incident with the urethane paint. So it looks like a long recovery time here.

 

Man yes urethane is dangerous, So is owning a gun, my money is guns kill more people a year then euro does (trade name from urethane). Now you had a bad life threatening experience to euro. Sorry, but banning it, or limiting who can buy it is extremist Just like the "eviromentalist" you speak of above. like your statement about getting a MSDS. do you get a MSDS when you buy bleach at the store? NO you are responsible for asking for one. LEGALLY the paint store has to have one for THEIR employees so makeing a copy shouldn't be a big deal. Given the INHERIT dangers of paint I would have asked for one. (yes in MY HOME SHOP I HAVE A MSDS BOOK!) Now, I am not trying to play down the danger of this. Do you think filters catch the vapors. They don't the only catch particulate. the actual vapor/ g***ses of the paint get pumped right out the stack. PPE is often over looked in a home shop, there is no foremen rideing your *** and is often over looked. just becuase a charcoal filter is $30 and a paint suit+ fresh air supply + gloves + + + Adds up to $$. I understand you had a very bad experienceand Im sorry but in reality your in the minority. don't limit me from buying it. People have the right to choose and should realize the inherit danger just lik e guns... which for the record still kill more paint than euro.

 

Gotta add my 2 cents to this very timely and important thread that should be made a "Safety Stickey" on this forum.
Won't bore you with how, but careless use of epoxy content products in my work over 40 years ago sensitized me to epoxy to an extreme degree. Example: If you repair something using an epoxy product such as "JB Weld", and then I come on the scene, never touching the object you repaired, just exposing myself to the volatile ingedients in the air of a normally ventilated area, will have serious reactions on me to the degree of possibly requiring emergency room trip.
Whatever the chemical is, it causes a swelling of the mucous membranes and thin skinned areas of my body, everything from "Willy Pete's " bald head, to the linings of my throat swelling to the point the air p***ages become restricted can you say "Tracheotomy"? (sp?)
I have no sensitivity to reasonably handled exposures to polyester fillers ("Bondo"), or either 1 part or 2 part urethanes or enamels with hardener at least not like the epoxy.
But I've not been as careless with my exposure to them either.
Dave

 

What about epoxy primer? OK to shoot with a charcol mask?

 

Isocyanites are a "sentizing allergen", Because our biological hisory knows nothing about the stuff the FIRST time you body is exposed to this stuff the body decides its nothing, or nasty bad stuff. Or the second time, or third, or never. When the body finally decides the stuff is bad it reacts just like you were breathing in a mega dose of cold germs... It trys to keep them out and kill them (and if it kills itself in the process as it thinks its going to die anyway). Same story and same type of reaction though much worse as being allergic to bee stings. Same with with latex, or any chemical that our body could identify as a foreign protein. This is why the stories of the guy dropping after the second use, or the guys saying they have used it for years without problems.

Uncured epoxies have an aminie content that is an irritant, definitly a nasty bad stuff in its own right, which can cause a bad localized reaction on repeated exposure, though I think the systemic allergic reaction is rare.

Polyesters (bondo, traditional fibergl***, etc) seem to be reasonabilly tolerated by the body, if reasonable common sense about ventalation (and respirator if needed) and hygene is used.

Lacquers are again reasonabilly well tolerated with common sense but use a lot of flamible solvents so the fire hazard and enviromental hazards are greater.

Solvents come in all kinds and you have to watch that you protect yourself from them IN ADDITION to whatever the base material is.

"Water Base" just means that water is the solvent! the underlying material may contain isocyanates, amines, latex, or a whole bunch of other nasty stuff...

The cured resin base of most paint (urethane, epoxy, polyester, etc) usually is pretty inert. But then there is the pigment base. Lead is nasty, cadmium is bad, etc.

RTFL RTFMSDS aka "read the f****** lable" "read the f****** MSDS".

If you are going to spray at home first think about fire. It does not really matter if you die in a week from isocyanate exposure if you died in the burn unit after a day from exploding your garage (not to mention the car is ruined) (oh yea the house too and the wife is pi**ed). Use adequate ventalation means LOTS of air flow.

Second think about overspray and fumes. Paint overspray on the wifes stuff is nothing next to paint on the neighbors. Also fumes. If you neighbor (or even family member) happens to be allergic to isocyanates, and there is a law in you area against spray painting, and he dies could you be looking out a prision window for several years (negligant homocide). (Those thinking "there otta be a law" should ask if they could be the bad guy).

There is a reason for modern pro shops to have a paint booth with downflow air and afterburners to clean the exhaust. There is a reason to use full encapusalted suits and supplied air. Consider renting time in one for your next spray job. (Oh yea, dont think about jury rigging a supplied air system off your compressor. If there is oil exposed to the air it can partially combust in compression to carbon monoxide, which will also kill you).

Enough of the bad stuff. Get back to building you car, driving the car, having fun. (and buying parts, lol)

 

Any catalyzed paint needs to be used with a 2-stage respirator at a minimum. I don't play with it at all, the craziest I do myself is Carquest primer in the rattle cans. I wear a mask when I use that inside a garage.

I'm also very sensitive to almost any chemical. We have a paint shop at work and even if someone is working with lacquer thinner in a vented spray booth, I get a fast buzz from it even 20 feet away. My hands break out from brake fluid exposure, a running car in an automotive shop I feel ill effects from after a few seconds.

I have probably had too much exposure to shooting lacquer paint with only a dust mask on, swimming in carb cleaner, hanging out near hot tank degreasers and washing my hands in the Safety Kleen sink before I went to lunch. Your body can only take so much of such exposure. My liver checks out fine, but is a bit on the fatty side. Probably too much Rebel Yell in my mis-spent youth.

Bob

 

Man, good luck with the recovery Scrounger and thanks for the warning. I have been pretty lucky, somewhat careful and seem pretty tolerant of chemicals. but, I know some chemicals are definitely some pretty bad news, not only for yourself but others around you too. One small thing I would like to add, if you have little kids around, be conscious about exposing some of this **** to them. They can react to things way more differently that an adult and still have their whole lives to live and don't need to be loaded up with toxic **** at a young age just because you want a nice paint job and have to do it in your garage or back yard. If you really just have to do you own renegade painting, stripping, whatever, make sure others, especially kids don't have to be exposed to it as well. Watching TV in the other room while you spray in the garage is not good enough. Just because it might not kill you right away or you feel it immediately, doesn't mean it isn't harming you. Be careful for yourself and be considerate to others around you.

 

Not trying to belittle your problem. I am truly sorry it happened. But it seems that exposure to freon (a general term for refrigerent these days) can have a lot of the same effects. It IS dangerous as well. The thing is to take precautions with whatever you are working withy dangerous chemicals, wether paint (all types), refrigerents, solvents, fuels, or cleaners.

You are at risk if you have been exposed whether by accident or on purpose.
The type and severity of an individuals reaction cannot be predicted without detailed medical examination and ***essment prior to exposure - and even then the results will be, at best, an opinion.

Freon is a refrigerant gas that is toxic and, if inhaled or ingested, can cause a wide variety of physiological symptoms both immediately and in the long term.
The most common poisoning occurs when people intentionally sniff freon. This is extremely dangerous and can lead to long-term brain damage and sudden death.
In these cir***stances the exact composition of the gas, the quan***y & concentration inhaled and any contamination from the container utilised are all unknowns.

Symptoms

• Lungs
  • Difficulty in Breathing (from inhalation)
  • Swelling of the Throat (which may also cause respiratory distress)
• Eyes, ears, nose, and throat
  • Severe pain in the throat
  • Severe pain or burning in the nose, eyes, ears, lips, or tongue
  • Loss of vision
• Gastrointestinal
  • Severe abdominal pain
  • Vomiting
  • Burns of the oesophagus (food pipe)
  • Vomiting blood
  • Blood in the stool
• Heart and blood vessels
  • Palpitations and irregular heart-beat
    
  • Ventricular fibrillation and death (sudden sniffing death syndrome)
  • Collapse
• Nervous System
• ** Dizziness
  • Headache
  • Confusion
  • Loss of co-ordination (do not drive if affected!)
    
  • Unconsciousness
• Skin
  • Irritation
  • Frostbite
    
  • Burns
  • Necrosis (holes) in the skin or underlying tissues

Seek immediate emergency medical care. Most of the symptoms listed result from breathing in (inhaling) the substance.
Move the person to fresh air. Be careful to avoid being overcome with the fumes while helping someone else especially in confined spaces and if bending down to administer aid (see below).