Henry, Good point to raise -- bound to generate some animated postings. As you point out, NHRA's HP 'factoring' and 'weight breaks' are two completely separate issues. NHRA's engine horsepower 're-factoring' didn't occur till well after the (1960s) Junior Stock era. I'm not sure when in the 70's NHRA began to factor or 're-factor' the manufacturer's listed engine HP ratings, but I know it certainly affected me! Alas, it's a sad boring story I'm about to share, but it should serve to illustrate 'weight breaks' and NHRA's horsepower factoring 'adventure' for some of the guys. The 70s was a tumultuous decade for me, and the dates are a bit foggy, so please try to 'cut me some slack' on the dates/years. In '75 or '76 I got the 'bug' again. I had mentored a few local stock class racers and painted more-than-a-few race cars, including all of nice-guy, Baltimore-based Lee Sherman's cars. Lee had become a serious '65/'66 220 HP 283 guy and he had some spare long blocks, glides, convertors, tires, headers, etc., etc., 'laying around' ... he encouraged me to pursue another effort. At the time ('75 or '76) NHRA's M/SA Class 'broke' (IE: the 'LIGHTEST' weight) at 14.00 pounds per HP. I thought (no, I knew) that a 1965 Chevelle 4-Door would be perrrfect! After all, it weighed 3,080 and divided by 220 (HP) gives you 14.00 exactly! Perfect ... right? Well ... It was! Sooo, I got a one owner, non-undercoated lil ole lady's (no kidden!) front-end crunched '65 four door 'see-dan' the day after it hit a local wrecking yard ... cost me $150.00 as I recall. Got a used front end at a local swap meet and did all of the 'usual' suspension and detail stuff'... put Lee's spare engine, the other 'bits' and a new 5.13 ring 'n pinion in place. Painted the front end, lettered it and acknowledged my pals/sponsors. It looked pretty good, cept the front end color was a tad off due to the somewhat faded main body. I was really READY ... I forget what time of the year it was, other it was just a few weeks after I was completely done and I got the BRAND NEW NHRA rule book and The National Dragster in the mail and guess what ... NHRA had 'factored' the 220 HP 283 'UP' five HP to 225. No big deal ... right? Well it sure did take the wind outta my sails! My perfect fit M/SA (at 14.00) was now a bad fit (@ 13.68 lbs per HP) ) in L/SA. At that time you could not add/subtract weight to better fit a (stock) class. So (thanks Darwin) I was scre%ed! Sooo, I peeled the freshly-applied 'M/SA' off the windshield, and (reluctantly) applied L/SA vinyl. Alas, low thirteens were pretty good, but didn't cut it in L/SA. Told you it was a sad story! Sooo it goes! ... Steve
Bob, you really think N.H.R.A. knew about the difference between the mirrors back then ? ( nut-57,thumbscrew-56 ) L.O.L.
I notice how they don't mention that they leak all over the place and are a PITA to work on. Turn your intake manifold into a barbecue to change jets, etc. Hide a screw you need to get to to change a vacuum diaphram so you have to remove the entire choke mechanism first to get to it. Run a tube with O-rings that have to be placed with the precision of the pyramids so they don't leak between the front and rear float bowls. Spill more gas all over the engine to adjust the floats, both from the screws and the HOLE in the side of the bowl. Yep, it's pouring out, it must be too high! Not to mention 3 ounces of gas you have to catch when you remove the bowl. Hide the fast idle cam screw so you have to make your own tool to get to it. Put the fuel inlets on the bowls so after you carefully tighten the bowls to prevent the built-in warpage issues with the metering blocks, you tweak them to get the fuel line tight! WOT.........good carbs. Drive the car on the road or tune it? I'd rather stick pins in my eyes. Most user un-friendly carbs ever designed!!!!!
Probably not , but, it was in the write-up I read. It also said that when the "Aluminim PG" was used the car was under the advertised shipping weight so the weight was brought back up by adding lead to the rear bumper and exhaust trim. Bob
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by 56 Pontiac I/SA The 15-Year Rule ('clearer' text images) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Yes, That is what ended it for me..........
Ok, here are the NHRA "Stock" class breaks, from 1958 until 1972... [When you click on the image to enlarge it, the title of the image will indicate the year.]
Thanks for the great work posting all of this data.The good people at NHRA changed their mind at the end of the 1974 season and dropped the ten year rule.Now they have cars running in stock eleminator that are a lot older than the 57 Chevrolets were in 1971.
No problem...I had to lock up early today so I was lucky to get the info that I got, and didn't have a chance to scan my '73+ books for any changes...thanks for the info!
I was taking a peek at one of Down South Racer's fave threads and ran across this post ... a lot of us had some great times there! Click here for more images--> 40
Great post, W Ever notice that everybody's an expert on Holleys, but they are totally baffled by a Q jet or a 4GC?
Sheeeeeeeeit, I had a '59 Impala with a 4GC equipped 348 that burned because of a fuel leak and a classmate lost his '61 Catalina 389 with 3 2GC's to a fire. Guess anything can burn a one time or another.
I know, it's a little bit late for 'Thanksgiving,' BUT I just wanna say ... Thanks to all the guys who have kept this thread 'smokin' ... especially 'COLESY,' who started it all. ... And Bob Rice and '65Delux' for their killer images, 'Old Tech Inspector,' 'TMcREA' and 'MARKYAC' for 'keepin us straight,' 'Down South Racer,' 'WGUY,' and Henry's57Wagon for great posts and intriguing 'history.' Oh!, my reason for posting ... Gee, as Steve Martin used to say "I ... (almost) Forgot!" ... Well, some of us thought it might be interesting to 'build' (on the forum) a 60s -style 'fantasy' Junior Stocker, but as ( TMcCrea ) aptly pointed out (I paraphrase here) "Do I really think 'a bunch' of guys could play in the same sandbox?" Valid point Tom -- well taken, so ... for the thread's consideration, here's a 'variation' on that idea that could be interesting ... and fun. First ... We pick a 'representative' NHRA season ... like (just for example) the still 'pretty liberal' year of 1968 ... see below. Then ... We pick a car/brand/body style/engine/engine model/transmission. And as Tom points out, this may really get a bit 'sticky,' but why not give it a try! Next (.01)... If we're still talking to one another thenafter that, we configure it ... BUT we actually FAST FORWARD through the 'build' process, and assume that all the 'usual' *stuff (*Dykes/.043s, Stahls, rate-of-lift cam, etc etc.) was done. Next (.02) ... This 'could be' the fun part. Based on what we all know now, we add modifications that 'The Farmer' might have allowed (if he looked, or 'went' that far). Next (.03) ... We spectulate the ETs and MPH the 'modifications/changes might produce. Next (.04) ... I'm sure (unlike myself) some of you guys are pretty 'PhotoShop savvy' and could visually 'depict our little project ... *lettering and all .... something like 'Project- JR' (back to the future) .. for example! Finally (.05) ... We'd all have severe Junior Stock 'burnout,' and have to find another 'sandbox' to play in!
Verne This turned out REAL COOL!!!! That's the info Dad & I were looking for once we dicided to sell it and you spent 25 years looking for. Great to see the car went home.
Steve, I'll have to ask him if he knows what year the photo is from. That picture is when the owner after him had it and put the 170hp 283 back in. I believe the last set up "he" (the first racer) raced it with was SS/X with a 270hp motor. BTW, I like your idea of building a "phantom" Junior Stocker. I'll have to look through my '68 rule book and make some suggestions. You may have opened up those same old grudges though........we have (mostly) Chevy, Mopar and Ford guys on this thread. Maybe you should consider having THREE of them built in competition, just like the old days. Otherwise, at least 2/3rds of us will be left out. OK, no more wacky ideas from me...... Verne
I have to step in here; THE HYDRO WAS NEVER AVAILABLE FROM THE FACTORY IN A SEDAN DELIVERY, SIX CYLINDER OR NOT. That's what started all the confusion that NHRA bought into. Because Sedan Deliveries were built, licensed, and titled as "trucks", and the hydro was an OPTION in "trucks", NHRA allowed it; much the same as they allowed dual fours and fuel injection in Sedan Deliveries, they NEVER came with those either. And, that's the reason they also finally DIS-allowed them. But, it was nice while it lasted! Butch/56sedandelivery. Let me add another thing; when the racers put the hydro in the deliveries, the bellhousing mounts had to be modified, another hole was drilled through the actual mount was what most guys did, the ANGLE was still slightly off. You'd be surprised how many of those deliveries wound up having the trans mount frame horns (55-57 guys know what these are) repaired, rewelded, or reinforced, because with the additional hydro weight, the incorrect mounts, and the rigors of racing, they would literally tear the trans mount frame horns off the actual frame. They probabably should have also added some kind of rear trans mount to help support the hydro; don't know what NHRA would have said about that though. Butch/56sedandelivery.
We'll I don't know about 'trucks' except to tote cars around with, but I owned a 55 Caddy Flower Car (yeah, the kind to haul funeral parlor flowers to the cemetary) and it was factory equipped with the 4 speed hydro. Left like a beast, and was good for the first 60'. It is now buried at the old Pocono Drag Lodge in Bear Creek PA. RIP, INDEED!!!
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5CFamily%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--> If you can afford to go to an NHRA race you may or may not see stock eliminator cars. They are still a part of most national events and points races. Unfortunately, when the stockers run time trials or even heads up for class winner is when many spectators head for the concession stand or go take a leak. Because of that, NHRA has been rotating stock out of various races in favor of a bunch of rice burner crap that shows up. A buddy of mine runs an E/SA 340 Duster. The money it takes to be competitive is staggering. Im guessing a decent stocker would cost in excess of $25,000 to build. Its a drag (no pun intended) to do what it takes to get to the track and make it through to the semis or better and see the stands clear out when your class begins to run. The cars that would fit in Jr. Stock are still around being raced when theyre a part of the program. Those guys and gals work hard to be competitive. Most of them are great people and are just regular Joes. The next time youre at a race take a leak after the stockers run.<o></o>
I think this photo is from the mid 70's. The 68 Chevelle in the other lane previously belonged to Skip Asay, who won the Atco points meet with it in about 1974. The Pinto wagon on the return road , looks like one of Stan Welch's Hobby Horse cars. I don't remember this particular 61 BA ( must have raced at Atco more than Englishtown), but anyway, It would have been a 170 hp (2 bbl) motor in SS/X. I know this, because I had a 61 Impala, in 72. It had a 61 style junior stock long block, with a GK flat tappet cam and a TM1 manifold with a 2bbl adapter. It ran right around the record (14.70's) Funny thing was, you had to have the shipping weight of the cast iron PG to make "X" with the 61,even though it was a stick shift class. Barry Raichlin, out of Buffalo, actually had the first one out. See the 1972 Winternationals class winners.
Steve, for Project- JR' (back to the future), one suspension trick I did was to grind all of the serrations off of the front control arm bushing sleeves and locktite the bolts with just enough tension to hold things together. I did the same to other stokers in the 70' to 90's, the Nova is done that way and is now on the street, and use old worn out front shocks. I heard stories of putting pistons in backwards, (something to do with the offset pin placement?), but never had first hand experience with this, Henry.
The Jalopy Journal
