Maybe O/T: Is Detroit dead?

Amen, Bill, Amen.

Jay

 

This post makes more sense than anything I've ever read on the subject. It's this attitude that gives me hope about our situation in this country, and if enough of us feel this way and act upon it, things will get better.

 

Come do my job and you will se why I get paid what I do. I wake up daily and have problems moving my hand, I blow my nose and my snot is black.

Healthcare is the biggest problem for the US auto industry. If our gov't would get their shit togehter and get us some sort of national health care, bring the tropps back an send the illegals home we could turn this country around. Canada's national health care is the biggest reason that GM is putting the Camaro back up there to be built.

As far as Toyota taking over, thet probibly will happen but as long as GM and Ford can get and stay profitable, who cares. I bet most people didn't realize that Toyota recalled more vehicles last year than they sold. There is a bias in the media that keeps most people from hearing that while evey recall for an American company is front page news. Also considering how Toyota pays their employees less in wages and beifits why is it that their cars and trucks are more expensive than the comparable American car.

Hatch, this isn't to bash you, just picking up on your comment.

 

This dude has the right of it. "Global economy" Maybe youve heard it, maybe not. If not, you will.... more and more you'll hear about it.
Of course, having a socialist for a Gov. aint helping us either. Now we've got some ass-hat wearing individuals who want to do away with the Mich. income tax. Yeah! They want to tie all the tax revenue to sales tax! How'd you like to be one of the blesseed few in this dieing cow of a state and go buy a 26K pick-up truck at what??? say 20% sales tax? (pulled a % from my ass, I've heard no proposed numbers yet)
You wonder whay we're in trouble? Thinking like that right there.

Jman? This is from someone in the medical field....... you count your blessings we dont have socialized medicine! I'm not saying what we have dont need tweeking, but socialized medicine KILLS average Joes.

 

You need to come down to St.Louis there is a huge demand for CNC operators and Machinist down here. City is rated the highest crime rate in the U.S. though. All the "good" people live across the river in IL. CNC operators at my shop work 12-13 hour days plus a few hours on sat. 50 hours mandatory the rest is optional. The company is growing fast. We also have Boeing and Anihieser-Busch.

That is how St.Louis is. I go to a high end trade school (Ranken Tech)for Precision Machining Tech. I am almost guaranteed at least 8 job offers in the surrounding area when I graduate. I think parts of Cali have a good demand as well. It is a lot harder to set up a part in a machine and check the dimensions within.0005 of an inch than it is to put lug nuts on a Chevy. Not to mention programming. If the job market goes sown the drain in 20 years I will do something different. Who wants to do the same thing for 40 years anyhow?

 

My wife is a nurse. A national health care may not be the awnser but it needs a shit load of work. I just transfered from a soon to be closing GM plant in PA to the one know in OH. A couple days after I got the transfer we come to OH to geta place to live. Later that night one of my wifes coworkers called to tell her theywere closing her floor, pediatrics. For us it was not a big deal since she was going to have to quit anyway but for the 30+ other nurses it was quite stressful. They did nothing to try and help these nurses to find anther job and they are fighting the severance pay that contractually they agreed to. Since slosing the floor one nurse has died and another one had an anurism. Maybe not 100% the hospitals fault but I am sure the stress of the situation did not help.

I can't remeber the point of what I was going to say now, oh well.

Anyway, how does it work in Canada?

 

It's digressing from the original point of the thread, but I do have something to insert here.

Why is all the talk of health care this, that etc, not centered around actually LOWERING the cost of it, instead of finding ways to AFFORD it?

For example, my youngest son was born with "hemanginoma(sp)", commonly referred to as "port wine stain" birthmarks. The thing about his birthmarks is that they have the potential to become big, oozing bumps... not too pleasant.

So, to remedy it, we have started him on a pulse dye laser therapy program, where he gets lasered every 8 weeks. Supposedly, it feels no worse than a bad sunburn, but man does he look hit!

Anyway, I got the latest copy of our bill from the University of Michigan hospital where he has his stuff done...

$889 for .5 hr anestectic
$1,190 for .5 hr OR "use"
$452 for the laser "use"
to sign in and get checked before surgery (paperwork) $433
to sign out after surgery (not recovery room, just paperwork) $278
over $100 in pain killers, IV's etc.

This doesn't include the actual charge from the surgeon, anesthetic person, etc, we get those bills separate.

All told, it cost $4,497 just to use the hospital and drugs!

And only part of it goes to my Mom (she's worked at U of M hosp for 20 years in medical records )

Am I glad I'm insured? Hell yes. Is that cost outrageous? Hell yes.

My neighbor had a bungee strap break and snap him above his eye. Visited the ER, got 4 stitches, took less than an hour, cost $1100, cash (not insured). He was told it cost so much because of all the "uninsured people who never pay their bills" drive the cost up.

But it's a double edged sword, as lately we've been getting bills 2 YEARS after a visit, that are being denied because they were 2 years ago. Do you mean to tell me that billing has been sitting on them 2 years...

Where do YOU think the system is screwed up?

PS, God bless nurses too, I could never do what they do.

Rant over.

jay

 

I hear that socialized health care only brings the cost down so you can afford the health care you want anyway. There is no way anyone wants to have the BASIC care, it is like getting a court appointed attorney! You get what you pay for...I work with several Brits that tell me this and I've heard it from a couple of Canadians as well.

 

This thread kept popping into my head over the last week or so...

Last night the Senate dropped a bail-out deal for GM and Chrysler because of the UAW's refusal to take cuts which would bring them in line with other workers in the industry... and other workers in general.

Stupid greedy fuckers...!!!
If GM and Chrysler go tits up, what good is your high wage and your fairytale benefits package. It'll be a memory.

The labor unions (and that means each of the individual workers) in this country have every responsibility to THINK OF THE COMPANY FIRST.

Labor unions were instituted to help with reasonable issues like healthy workplaces and 40 hour work weeks, etc. Nobody has a right to untold riches just because they join a union. Go back and read the things I wrote in this thread almost a year ago... I still stand by every word.

I hate to say it, but if those companies shut down, and the union workers are out on their ass, it will be the fault of the UAW and those who think they deserve more than they had coming.

Enjoy your rat meat sandwiches and snowball soup...


JOE

 

Yes, the fact the union wouldn't agree to immediately lowering wages was brought up yesterday was on factor in this scenario. But in reality it was the whole group invovled management and the union. I have a feeling the storm is about to begin.
The whitehouse still has an opportunity to use the bailout money earmarked for the banking industry. Its a double edge sword. I too want to see the auto industry reorganize immediately... not three years down the road. The problem is the economy will have to pay for it. The American people will never forgive the auto industry for whats about to happen.

 

Wait until the flood of Chinese manufactured cars are imported over here, most are ripoffs of japanese designs but without the quality. but they will be CHEAP, and people of the walmart mentality will buy them like crazy, even though if you crash one you're a gonner. from wiki:

China's automobile industry is in rapid development since year 2000. In 2006, 7.189 million motor vehicles were manufactured in China, surpassing Germany as the third largest automobile maker, after Japan and the United States.

China is set to become the world's second largest new automobile growth market by the end of 2006 and this growth is spurring demand for automotive parts, services, and after-care products. China is presently capable of manufacturing a complete line of automobile products and large automotive enterprises. Major domestic firms include the China First Automobile Group Corp. (FAW), Dongfeng Motor Corp. (DMC) and Shanghai Automotive Industry (Group) Corp. (SAIC).

China had a total of 6322 automotive enterprises by the end of November 2006. The total output value of the automotive sector for the first three quarters of 2006 was US$143 billion. Since 2002, 50% of all motor vehicles (cars and trucks) in China had been purchased by individuals. As incomes increase the high annual growth rate of private ownership is expected to accelerate.

China is also know to copy vehicle designs some of which are Laibao SRV a copy of HONDA CRV, Dadi Shuttle a copy of Toyota Land Cruiser Prado, Chery QQ a copy of G.M Spark and many more.
* Dongfeng Motor Corporation
* Great Wall Motors
* Guangzhou Automobile Industry Group
* Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation
* Chang'an Motors
* First Automobile Works
* Chery Automobile
* Geely Automobile
* Brilliance China Auto

anyway, the only means of survival I can see for the big three will be to give more for less money, which means cuts in expenses and pay, while keeping quality up. a tough bill to sell.

 

Funny thing is every one is bitching about the overpaid Union workers and how they deserve to lose their jobs but not one word is being said about the Wall Street and the banks who created the whole mess we are in now. What about their salaries and bonuses? The millions, no billions they have taken out of their companies in the last 10 years, and we are now giving them BILLIONS to save their asses for fucking the whole thing up! And all with no questions asked. Funny, I never heard the Republicans trying to stop the $700 Billion bailout for them because they made to much money!! WTF!!! Give me a break! And then those same fat ass paid for politicians in the Senate with their automatic pay increases, lifetime pensions and health care that voted against this, why don't we ask them to cut their pay and benefits in half and see what their reaction is? Better yet, cut them to $0 because they were the ones that allowed the mess to happen in the first place, with their lack of regulation, oversight and accountability. The Big 3 wasn't hurting that bad until the real estate crash and resulting credit problem from that. And how many of you like driving big gas guzzling Detroit iron and were happy to buy it the last 10 years? Weren't you the ones saying "Drill Baby Drill!" and bitching about the price of gas? And you're mad at the Big 3 for not making economical little shit boxes before now? Sure, let the Big 3 fail and see what happens next, because your job might be next because the slide to the bottom will be fast and rough! Three million jobs affected will drop the bottom out of this whole economy! Everyone will feel it (except maybe the ones on top).

Be American, buy American says it best! It's funny how the average working guy wants to see the working guy next to him make less, but never questions what the people at the top take out of the system. Go figure that one out!

Oh yeah, and enjoy your TRADITIONAL Dongfeng, Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, Nissan Hot Rod in the future!

 

... the worst upper management/marketing/sales weasels imaginable.

They need to clean house big time, starting at the top.

 

I like this guy!

 

I wouldn't mind buying from Detroit if they'd build what I want.

A 1/2 ton P/U or Ranchero/ El Camino type vehicle, without ABS, Airbags, Power Windows, and all the other bullshit they weigh new Cars down with.
And something that looks cool and stylish, without being one of these bogus Retro Designs.

Basically, if they'd build what I already drive,
but with a warranty...

Since they dont, I had to build my own.

 

The cars anymore suck,,I'd say 1/2 the people who buy new cars don't even need em. There just keeping up with looking good. The big 3 has had quite a while to get with teh new program of what will sell,,and the Hummer 3 comes out ?? We need trucks,,cut the car line in 1/2,,and not like there gonna go belly up..all the 10 year old cars out there still need parts so. That should keep people busy for a while.

 

It's really lookin like shit. We will be driving Tata's or Chinese? A long way from Motorama.

 

The funny thing is that the Government did not put the same stipulations on the banks when they handed the money to them. Nobody had to take a cut in pay so they could be bailed out, so why the Union workers. Thats just another ploy for the government to try and to bust the unions up. Nixon tried it in his days in office and here we go again, I say good for the UAW for saying no. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander I say.......


Oh and if the US auto makers are depending on my dollar to buy what they build they can keep on waiting, because I WILL NEVER own a new car end of story!! Heck my 51 ford is the newest car I own and I bought it when I was 13!

 

I'm NOT saying I agree or disagree (and the bailout is dead right now anyway) but I thought this fake ad was on topic for posting:

 

Food for thought:

I lost my job in February of 2001, when Enron decided to screw over California for a couple of bucks. I went to a two year trade school, busted my butt and relied on my wife to get us through it. Because I applied myself in school, I was offered a job as a maintenance electrician in a manufacturing plant.

Now you might be thinking, "Hey, he's probably pretty smart, I doubt I could do something like that". Bullshit. Period. When I first went over to that school I took their placement tests. I did real well with everything except for the math section. I failed the math in fact, failed it miserably. But they offered some evening classes, twice a week, and I went, twice a week. I aced the math, got my crap together, and went on to succeed in the school.

What does all this mean to you? Simply this: it doesn't matter what your doing right now, or what you've been doing for 40 years, if you can find the thing that interests you, you can make it happen.

You know what? I could bitch for days and days about Enron, those thieving fucks, but I don't. Why not? Because it doesn't matter, at the end of the day I did what I needed to do to take care of my family. Sure, there's always someone that's gonna screw you over. That's the way of the world. You just have to join the rest of us, the survivors, and pick up your ass, realize that it's a big world, and move on.

I was scared shitless when I lost my job. I worked in an aluminum smelter, made good money for my area. Heck, I made real good money for the fact that I didn't have a real skill, just a glorified equipment operator. I realized that the only people who weren't worried were the skilled workers, the electricians, mechanics, machinists, and millwrights. That's why I decided to become an electrician. Too many people today can't do squat for themselves, sure they might be great computer technicians, but they can't fix their furnace, can they?

Alright, I guess I should cut this off before it becomes a freakin' book. To all you out there right now, just layed off, I feel for ya, I know what that feels like, and it sucks. Just remember, DON'T SETTLE FOR CRAP! If you have even half a chance, find a trade and run with it. You will not be sorry. And for those who think they aren't smart enough, or don't think they can figure it out, well, this is my personal mantra, and it's as true as sunshine: It isn't hard, it's just new.

Good luck guys, I'm pulling for ya!

Union proud (IAMAW, USWA) say what you want, but I won't work industrial unless it's a union plant....

 

I did the same thing, went to College and night school, earned a trade, blah blah blah.
Eventually got a job for a company in a "recession proof industry".

Still got screwed. And since "the Suits" are now sending all
the manufacturing jobs to China, I'm back where I started.

Fuck the Suits. Fuck the Paper Pushers. Fuck the Investment Weasels

 

I don't think there is anything that is recession proof anymore. We are sitting on the edge of what is going to probably be the biggest recession ever.

You may get screwed, but they can't take away your trade. Someone, somewhere is looking for your skillset. You might have to move to get to them, but they are out there. I moved twice after getting layed off, it wasn't easy, my wife and daughter had some adjusting to do, but in the end it worked out.

Good luck man, I wish the best for you

 

BINGO ! My grandfather would allways say " Son don't ever buy anything you can't afford.

As a union Electrical worker in the Detroit area I've had to take about a $400 cut in monthly take home in order to keep my job (max 35hrs a week), I thank the Lord every day for any and all work/income he provides for me and my family.

PS
Its gonna get worse !

 

I work for a contract company that contracts to Caterpillar in mossville il. Right now Caterpillar is going to layoff 2000 of it contract employees which has a good chance of getting me this will be the second time in two years i will have lost a job due to layoffs last year july 29th the union company i worked for said that they seen a trend that the market was going down for road construction equipment and that they were going to lay 35 of us off.I had been loyal to them for the 3 years they employed me and when they layed me off they said they were unsure when or if i would come backwell in feburaury they called me back and said that if i wanted to keep my seniority i had to come back into another job which was fine with me as long as i was going back!But once i got back i found i had only been called to help get orders out the door then i would be right back out on the streets by may if i was lucky so i took this job with this non union contract company to support my wife and 5 month old son and was told that i was secure from a layoff! BS last saturday Catepillar announced to keep their billion dollar profits up that they would have to layoff more than 2000 of its contract employees! I make a dollar 50 an hour less than what i was making in the union shop and i am also driving 50 miles 1 way to work now and when gas prices hit record highs it made it even harder to get to work even driving a 28mpg car and its american Dodge.But Now i have found nothing is secure anymore!If we lose the big 3 this country is not gonna be in good shape this country will turn into a sespool.Unions have their place and when it comes to companyies pushing around their employees and forcing them to work longer hours and more days thats what a union is there for to stop those pushy tactics and keep those people employed when the companies become unfair.So if you have never been in a union don't knock it cause they have saved alot of jobs over the years.

 

If i get layed off now we stand the chance of losing everything we have including our house the town i live in every company here in the last five years has either almost completely layed of all but maybe 40 people in their shop or have closed their doors.We have lost two major factories in this town within the last ten years because of foreign companies coming in and buying them out then taking their patents and hauling ass back overseas.

 

Shrewd moves by the former Boeing exec in 2006 mean Ford doesn't have the same dire need for emergency cash as GM and Chrysler.

Associated Press

DEARBORN, Mich. -- A decision Ford Motor Co. CEO Alan Mulally made during his first months on the job may turn out to be the automaker's saving grace.

In 2006, the chief executive fresh from Boeing Co. wanted to concentrate on making smaller, more fuel-efficient cars, match production with consumer demand, and focus on the Ford, Lincoln and Mercury brands.

The company has announced the closure of 17 factories and eliminated 50,000 jobs since its latest restructuring started in 2005, many through buyout and early retirement offers. It sold non-Ford brands Jaguar, Land Rover and Aston Martin and is studying the sale of Sweden's Volvo. Smaller cars produced by its European unit are coming to the U.S. starting in 2010.

" But to fulfill that vision for the company, Mulally needed at least $17 billion. He took his plan -- one very similar to the one Ford submitted to Congress last week -- to 40 banks at a time when credit flowed freely, and he ended up raising $23.5 billion. He bet all of Ford's buildings, stock, intellectual property, stakes in foreign automakers and even its trademark blue logo as collateral. " WOWIE, blue balls !!!!

"At the time people were wondering if we were being too aggressive to leverage assets," Mulally said. "I erred on the side of being conservative on financing."

 

That is happening all over the country right now. And the bad thing is the small towns that once flourished because of the big factories employed the major portion of the town, they are the ones that are suffering the worse. The same thing happened to my sister in law, Johnson Controls shut down and the entire town is on unemployment.

My wife and I are lucky to the fact that we a retired and everything we own is paid for, but that still has us wanting to simplify everything. We are waiting for my daughter to graduate high school next year and we are moving out west. We are building a totally green self sufficient home (solar and wind powered) going to grow our own vegetables, raise a few cows and laying hens, and take a step back into time when things were a lot simpler.

 

Everyone has an opinion, so here's mine.
The credit bail out and the auto companys are apples and oranges.
Fannie mae and freddy mac were government backed programs that guaranteed loans. (Yes, the assholes in charge should be shot) But one way or another the government (we the taxpayers) were already on the hook, so it's a matter of fixing it the best way possible.
Auto companies are private. If they can't make it, too bad. Lots of companies go under every year. A government LOAN may make sense, but only if they show they can pay it back, which means major changes. If that includes pay cuts etc. OK. Either that or close the doors. Like electrodude said, the workers can take the pay cut, or find a better job, Their choice.
Some things have to change. It is a global economy, deal with it. No amount of government intervention, tarrifs, subsidies etc. can save a shitty company, or business sector. But too much government can doom us all. No socialist country has ever prospered, and that's where we are headed with socialized medicine, substandard loans and all the other government programs. (voting for the guy that promises to fix your problems is your biggest mistake, eventually he will get around to fixing someone elses problems at your expense).
No one can predict what will happen if the big 3 go under. The market demands a certain number of new cars a year. Something will fill the void, and the jobs will be there.
Same worker, in the same job, in the same place, at the same salary, probably not. But with all change comes opportunity, for someone.
Forget the government, take care of your own. Do what you have to do to survive and prosper. Pointing fingers and bitchin about the other guy is bullshit. We all DESERVE nothing, except what we earn.
The HAMB is based on guys who are willing to work, willing to sacrifice, willing to do what it takes to have the ride of their dreams. Take that attitude and apply it to the rest of your life. Let the whiners, the wanabees and the posers wallow in their self pity.

 

If you guys don't know the unions have taken major pay cuts- they now start at about $14 hr and max @ $25hr. they have taken cuts in health care, but the cost of the retired workers is the problem, and the japanese car co. doesn't pay for health Ins Japan Gov does. so is it fair to compair? it's apples to oranges.
this is the fault of the Banks and wall street, nobody asked them to take a pay cut, but the middle class has to? Why? The banks got the bail out but won't lend any money, now some of them are giving the exutives their million dollars bonus's.
If Detroit fails over 3million people will be out of work, but don't worry the trickle down that Regan started in the 80's will kick in any minute now!

 

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is to have "Global" standards for cars. Why should all automakers have to meet varried levels of crash safety/emissions for major markets like north america/europe. Why not in all this mess come up with a plan that will allow auto makers to create truly "world" cars that can be sold with very minor changes, i.e. not entire powerplant changes