Maybe O/T: Is Detroit dead?

Man, that brings back memories! Not good ones either

 

Actually, that was a spelling error.

It wasn't trikle down, it was Trample Down.

 

Exactly!!

 

You DO realize that "trickle-down" economics was what spurred the economy into high gear, right? Check the unemployment and interest rate statistics for 1980 when Reagan took office versus 1988 when he left... and how it continued to improve for the average American every year until now. Having healthy prosperous American companies means having healthy prosperous jobs for Americans. Funny to see someone bitching both sides of the coin in one post.

 

I don't know about the brakes on a GM but I've got a '92 F250 diesel that the front brakes lasted 111,000 miles and the back drum shoes are the ones that came on it brand new and it has 126,000 on it now. Other than a dual mass flywheel that I screwed up and some glow plugs I haven't spent shit on that truck. I have a 2000 Lincoln Navigator, yeah it don't get shit for mileage but, for what I'd have to pay difference for a friggin' Prius I can buy a hell of a lot of gas and I'd still have a Prius instead of a fine ride like that Navigator. I have a little POS 2001 Pontiac Sunfire that is the little woman's daily driver. Gets 27 mpg around town and I only gave $5000 for it with 24K miles a year ago. From time to time when I worked I rented cars. I have rented a Ford Fusion and a Chevy Malibu and in my opinion they are as good a car as anything hatched in Japan or Korea. I've owned Hondas and a Mazda Miata that I gave $4000 for and drove for 4 1/2 years and sold for $3,500 and never did anything but put a water pump and a window regulator on it. I had a Honda Civic that I couldn't keep transmissions in and the goofy bug in the distributor would spin out of sync every now and then. So I just don't buy this shit that all these foreign cars are better than American. It is true that there probably is more revenue generated in America by Honda and Toyota than there is by Ford GM & Chrysler. When Toyota came to NASCAR all kinds of people were upset but at least it was put together here in America and not someplace in Mexico. In my opinion some of these problems, if not most, are caused by the government with their CAFE standards and the "greenies" ruling the country.

I'm not one that buys into the global warming shit. Back in 1942 the "lost squadron" was forced to land in Greenland. There were 6 P-38's and 2 B-17's. They encountered bad weather and had to force land in Western Greenland. They could not take off again. Back in 1992 an expedition was formed to find those airplanes. In 50 years those planes were covered by 250' of ice. If global warming is so prevelent how in the hell did those planes wind up under 250' of ice? In any case there needs to be a balance of needs. We can't let the whole country go to crap because of the whines of a few, but that's exactly where the phrase came from "the squeeky wheel get's the oil".

Then there's our great politicians. Oh God, one could go on and on about this. When I see Chris Dodd saying that the head of GM should go I almost puke. Chris Dodd should be in jail over the Fanny/Freddy thing. Talk about a piece of work!

I see no end to this in the foreseeable future. I have been a government worker all of my life. One works for the government for a reduced salary because of security. So much for that. Back in October I was let go by the State of Florida. This after nearly 22 years. Where is my union to protect my ass? Where is the senority thing? I was the number 2 senior employee there. I was lucky though. I could retire. So I did. Don't have the money I did working but will survive a lot better than most. So that's my story and I'm stickin' to it. I don't blame the oil companies, I don't blame George Bush, I don't blame union people totally but I do think corporate greed is real. Piss on these huge bonus's after running a company in the ground. They should be fired, period. I blame the government more than anything else. The congress, they are the folks that dole out the money and they are as crooked as a snake, make no mistake about it. Unless there are term limits, and there never will be, this will go on forever. Those crooks will be elected time and again by their constitutants and I don't have a say whether they stay or not because I'm here in FL and they are elected by Conneticut or somewhere else and their decisions affect me as much as they affect their own. Oh well that's what it is!

 

I was a ford worker for 35 years skilled trades didnt make $40 hour give me a break.when is the dumb asses in this country going to start taking care of their own,instead of the chineese and japan

 

Trickle down is what happens when you have poor bladder control...............

It has the same effect in economics when you are on the down side of the yellow river.

 

I going through the GM ASEP program here in Birmingham, AL to be a GM Technician. And I really dont want to see the big three go out because the whole reason I'm going to school is to work on American cars. I dont want to have anything to do with the new import cars like a bunch of my friends are. I'll ride a unicycle to work before I drive a Toyota. I just hope they can pull things together but things are starting to look bad.

 

i agree with this also, no one has even mentioned the" politically correct" bull shit that goes on more so on the political side than labor which i personally think of as paid protection. you know all the cars we value, most anything on them were an option, now most of the automobiles we purchase are equipped with bells, whistles, and other gadgets that i really have no need for in the first place. which in turn drives up the costs of the vehicles, and most of this is government mandated ie:airbags and what a joke 15 mph bumpers, and this is just a couple that i have named. in the past i have rebuilt salvage vehicles as a job, but since state govt intervention with branded titles and such, no one wants to finance any of them for customers and what this is about is insurance companies dont want to payout money on the same car again. but what difference does it make? whether you pay out on a new car or one that's rebuilt your still out money and less on a rebuild because of new car prices. but the new car companies dont sell another new one and the insurance companies cant collect higher insurance rates on them.GREED All of my older cars dont have airbags, power windows, and when they were made they were producing something that lasted 80+ years and more. are any of the vehicles currently being produced gonna be around in 80 years and if so do you really think anyone would want to spend the time and money to rebuild one? i certaintly hope not. they were produced as junk and will be the same then. it seems to me that all our problems are as any other problems they start at the top and trickle down. our problem really lies in our government and without a complete turn around in it theres no hope for any of these things that were speaking of.

 

I blame hipsters, mostly people under 40. everyone seems to be obsessed with coolness and appearances. I see all these people that have to have a new car every few years, just cause thiers isn't shiny no more. they cant really afford it, so they finance, struggle, and ultimately fail.
they cant deal with living in a house thats not in a pretty nieghborhood, with modern houses.people dont fix things anymore, because its easier just to buy a new one......

Lazyness, greed, selfishness, decedance, vanity, ignorance, apathy, jeolosy, pride, for the sake of being proud, when you have done nothing to be proud of yourself for,pop culture, pomp, and convenience among other things.
These are the things that are causing our nation to rapidly decend. this has to do with a large portion of our society.
the automotive industry is just a small part of what i feel is about to go down in our country... but im ready for the storm.

forgive me if im sounding like an old man (only 27) , but everyones too fucking spoiled these days

 

lotta truth there...

 

unions,unions,unions, Why is always the union fault. I work for Freightliner truck manufacturing plant in Portland Oregon. We were informed that they are moving to mexico in 2010. As a 16 year union member we have given concessions back when asked by the company.They asked for help and we stepped up to the plate.I make a good living(40,000-45,000) yearly. I dont live like a king but live well.Support my wife and three kids and am able to enjoy my hotrod hobby.If you are mad because union workers make good money and have good benifits, remember that workers fought and sacrificed so we can enjoy stuff like 40 hrs work weeks,5 day work weeks,ot pay,holiday pay,vacation pay sick,pay.If you are jealous JOIN A UNION.Freaghtliner will pay mexico workers 50$ a day,but will sell the trucks for the same price.Freightliner made a PROFIT of 7 BILLION last year,so don't blame the union workers, who just want a good job, a good wage and chance to have the american dream. that is my two cents thanks

 

I hate when people just blame wall street, the bankers, etc for everything-- because it's easier to point fingers than look in the mirror.

Corporations are just guiding the sheep..... To foreign manufactured, cheap goods. To Walmart. To the greed of financing yourself to the hilt to conspicuously consume more shit.

Perhaps this country and our people don't deserve to be entitled anymore? Perhaps these bailouts are nothing more than welfare that is unsustainable-- financed welfare that will hurt us more when we have to pay the debt back.

If I go bankrupt, i'll adjust and survive. If GM can't, perhaps it doesnt deserve to survive. I believe it can.

The great depression taught this country a lot, and the people that made it through it are who made the WWII "greatest generation" happen. You know how to fight because you know why to fight.

Bring on the pain..... we deserve it, and it can make us hungry and strong again-- instead of the whining bitches we are nowadays. I've been dirt poor and i've had good money-- i can be happy either way.

And, i like the quote i saw above..... "This isnt politics. This is real."

-scott noteboom

 

RILEYRACING, This is only my opinion, but I think you might appreciate it's applicability to your situation.
I'd like to compare what I saw with the General Aviation Industry with the problems in tha Automobile Industry. In the 1980s the industry was booming, with three small aircraft manufacturers dominating the field. Eventually they would all have to cut back drastically. Anybody could own a small airplane then, with the major stepping stone being getting a pilot's license. Mechanic schools were turning out record numbers of new licensed mechanics. It looked like it was something that could not fail. Without getting into all of the reasons the golden goose died, EPA, NAFTA, Liberalism in general, politicians changing their focus away, jealous of ordinary people owning airplanes, etc. This resulted in the closing down of thousands of small restaurants and other businesses at every home town airport in the bread basket of the country.

The difference was that the industry was spread out. Also, there was no dominate union making promises to us. We were mostly an industry made up of independent contractors. I made a very good living at it, with no allegance to anybody, but I NEVER made even one half of what a union auto worker made. Now, their turn has come, no matter how lout they holler, they are a dying breed.

Deal with it, because I see the Automobile Manufacturing business going the same route. Due to manufacturing innovations, robotic assembly lines, etc. there just aren't as many jobs as there used to be, even though the population is still growing. Along with that there are all of the different variables.

People tend to blame the Unions. Others blame the Companies. Others blame the Foreign Manufacturers. It's not really any of that. The reasons are a multitude of variables, too numerous to mention here, but overproduction is the highest on my list.

The fact is the industry is producing far too many cars for the public to consume. I can buy a three year old car with about a hundred thousand miles on it, less half of it's reasonable life expectancy, for about 1/20th of it's new price. Using that equation, a new car should cost about $7,000 instead of $20,000.
No matter what is done, short term, won't change the fact that if the new car industry quit building cars completely, the public would have enough vehicles to last for several years without there being an actual shortage of cars.

We in General Aviation have all suffered collectively as much as you in the Automobile Manufacturing are facing, except it wasn't big news because of how spread out it was. A lot of the guys I worked with still haven't accepted the facts. They still complain, hoping that it will come back. I have moved on in my life. Ten years ago, I quit working as an aircraft mechanic and started working for a taco machine repair shop, for more money than I made as an aircraft mechanic. Since then I have retired.

I also saw the future. I moved from a 3,000 sq ft house, sold it, and into a trailer house. I was 62 looking to go on social security shortly and knew that I had to make big cuts to survive. My wife fought me tooth and nail, but eventually accepted that the good old days were over. If we had kept that house, we would be skrimping to make the payments and upkeep, with virtually no mad money. As it is, I keep busy in my retirement with a couple of cheap old hand maintained hotrods, and laugh at anybody that even suggests that I buy a part that I can't find on a junk car someplace. A new car? Ha. I can buy a perfectly good used one for cash, why would I go in debt to waste what little retirement fund I have?

My suggestion to somebody that is in this situation is to make a lifestyle change. Do some research, what's the new deal, and bend with the times. Sink or swim. Plan on making a LOT LESS MONEY, (forever), because the new social movement is toward socialism.

All of the political power is going there and there isn't going to be any stop to it. The liberals have taken over, they have the poor people in the cities voting for them and have the following to continue with that for the forseeable future. Everybody that is making good money, is going to foot everybody else's bills. Barak Obama, Nancy Polosi, have already signed on to "income redistribution" and the people have bought into it. All of the powerful damocraps and their ilk want to give a lot of that to those that voted for them. They are starting to demean managers of big companies first. "CEO's" "Big Oil", those are the buzz words for who they are going to eliminate from the mix. That will end up when big companies quit hiring highly qualified managers and replace them with mediocre. Eventually we will be a mediocre country, whining more about the good old days than adapting to reality.

Except me. I will adapt. Millions of us will Adapt. Many will not. Be one of the survivors, not one of the dinosaurs.

 

For those of you who have never read, ATLAS SHRUGGED this might be a good time to read it. A bit late but Ayn Rand was right on the money when she wrote this book. She was a Russian atheist that believed in Capitalism and describes the downfall of it through Socialism, exactly what we are going through today.
It is a work of fiction and it is long and at times you have to stick with it. But at the end of the book all the gearheads will appreciate it even more.
I've read the book twice since I was 16 years old. And we, as a nation are heading exactly where Ms. Rand predicted. It was first published in 1957.
As a matter of fact, most gearheads will enjoy this book. It will really get you thinking.

 

Ironic isn't it?
Sad fact is the nay-sayers will ignore the facts. I'm trying to keep my comments on topic, cars, but before the autoworkers union leadership will bend with the wind(socialists in the purest of definitions), they will take their constituants (the workers) down the primrose path............

 

Well, in the end of A. S. it was about an engine. Literally and figuratively.

 

Just so people get it right, Rand is pronounced to rhime with Ayn. Oops, gotta go and read some On-T!

 

Really, '09 is gonna hurt bad.

 

Oilsinger got it in one. Oh and have'nt any of you guys heard the saying ?

"The fish rots at the head......"

Think about it.

Rat

 

Yes, that's very ironic.

 

kinda sounds like the goverment is telling the big 3 that they have outlived their usefulness kinda like the incandecant light bulb! bet mexico has their fingers crossed.

 

Unkl Ian<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_3381517", true); </SCRIPT>
Old School HAMBer



Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Just past the corner of Hell and The Twilight Zone.

That says it all.

 

Are YOU fucking kidding me? That is where this started! Loaning $ to people who don't deserve it to buy things they can't afford. The system collapsed. Like a giant pyamid. The auto industry is the tip of the collateral damage. Hang on to your shorts pal.

Did you see the guy who started NASDAQ? Bilked people out of $50 BILLION. Holy cow man!
These people don't produce ANYTHING. Nothing. Nada. Can't export that to help with the trade deficiate. They are riding on manufacturings back.

 

couldnt say it better my self junk yard dog ...

 

Most people that blame the unions are jealous of whet the union workers have.

 

It's already started.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008112120001

 

well said Dan... our place is really slow also.. no layoffs but you never know.. they did tell us a couple weeks ago that there were not gonna be any xmas bonus this year and everyone got pissed off.. seems they all live on ot and the bonus? then they came back later and told us we would have the last friday before new years off un payed.. ok by me but then again people got all pissey.. Heres the kicker .. the following friday there wasnt shit to do and they told people if they wanted they could leave at 2:00 and it wouldnt count against them but they wouldnt get pay for the whole day.. Dumb fucks lined up at the time clock ,,,, they very same ones that bitched ?... Michigan sucks and our governor is an idiot but if your living on ot and dumb enuff to buy shit you cant payfor and blind to the obvious economy meltdown then sorry but tuff shit.. deal with it... Hey this shit doesnt make me happy and since i hardly used my roadster last summer i sold the thing. Times are scary and i may need that cash... Im thankful my house is payed for but other than saving me a payment every month i may be loosing money ?... Well if i had to sell i surely wouldnt get wat its worth.
Banks loaning money with no down payment and 125% of value and letting people have 2 mortguages is what fucked this country up.. They outta hang all the fucking bankers first.. But the second problem is the dumb fucks that took out the loans.... Oh well .. We shall see what the new guy can do... Its gonna be hero or zero for him im afraid...
Good luck to everyone were all gonna need it working or not.
Dave

 

As someone living throught this in the heart of it Wayne County , Michigan it's scary. We have several freinds that are unempoyed with out tons of job prospects if they stay here. Leavng is a tough option when you have a house that is worth 30% less than you owe on it. I have several counterparts in our Automotive division fighting to keep thier jobs and we in the Aftermarket division keep praying we dont follow. The bad thing is our local economy was based on a Union autoworkers wage, We had inflated home values, etc. My wife and I make a good living, but if one of us lose their jobs we will loose the house. We are one of the statistics that bought a home when the values were at their peak and then used equity to to updating on it. I would stand to lose 30,000 on my house IF I could find somenoe to buy it. We have begun to tighten our belts, watch spending, trying to pay down any debt, and basically prepare for the worst. The car thing will have to take a back seat to survival for awhile. Chrome and paint dont put food on your plate. For those bitching about Union wages, I agree their are some dumbshits that have taken advantage of the Auto companies for far too long and should be booted out. But the thing to think about is when times are good those same people buy cars, do house remods and updates, have work done on their cars, go out to eat, and basically buy stuff that keep the local economy going. If something happens with me I will go back to College and focus in the Medical field. Our future Socalist goverment with at least have jobs to provide for that segment of society. Scat Times and I hope we come out of this tougher and smarter