Maybe O/T: Is Detroit dead?

"We had inflated home values"

If feel for you. In the Lansing values have dropped like wise. However I can't agreee with the "Inflated" part. Check other parts of the country. My brother-in-law's house value dropped $280,000 in two years down to $400,000 in San Diego, CA. That's more then my house was ever worth. I have 3 acres, 1200 sq. ft. barn and 1630 sq. ft. house with a partially finished basement. His. 1500 sq ft, CA lot on a corner, no basement and a yard that a well trained goat could take care of.
Sold My father's house in FL and today it's worth 65% of what we sold it for in August of 06.

 

...I pretty much agree with you but how can the quality of their product be worth the same money if it's built by people stupid enuf to work for 50 cents a day?...........if Freightliner made 7 billion profit last year, how much will they make paying 50 cents a day to build em?...how much money is enuf?...corporate greed!

 

And they would be further in the hole, building a car/truck thing that nobody, except for perhaps yourself, would buy.

I read this on another site, a small blog by an empty headed friend of mine. A Dem "I hate Republicans" rant, has no backing here. The reason Wall St needed a bail out is not nearly the same as Detroit. Wall St is a self adapting market that has no choice but to follow trends, its their bread and butter. But going over the line of judgement buying and selling funds that nobody actually earned or has/had is where they went wrong, and it leveled back out.

The union workers may view this as a small victory with the UAW standing firm, but when pink slips are handed out and plants close, you can't get money from an empty ATM. And by that point its going to be too late, and the way I see it Detroit will be sold off to foreign companies within months for pennies on the dollars and non Union workers will be hired for whatever-they-can-get an hour to do the same job they are now.

What I REALLY think is ironic and I havent seen anyone touch on it yet, the heads of the big 3 have had various news appearances during the weeks before the decision, and they are avidly avoiding the bankruptcy route. The same pre staged response is that consumer faith will be down if the company goes under bankruptcy and continues operation. Well, if they don't, and start shutting plants down and laying off workers at the speed of light essentially trying to chase their tail, where is consumer faith then? Its low now, going to get lower, at least under bankruptcy we can shred the UAW contracts and publicly rework their finances and the American people can see some sort of progress, not feeding $ into the mouth of a failing system. That would do more in my eyes for consumer faith than avoiding bankruptcy IMO.

 

Loveoftiki: you're thinking straight guy, going back to school to get a trade is the best thing to do for your family.

Unionvillehaunt: what makes you so sure things would turn out differently if the unions made all the concessions that the companies asked for? Do you think that the Big 3 would have any more respect for their workers? Honestly, do you think the problem is with the employees and not with the people who make the real decisions?

Everybody likes to come down on the unions. But here's the real story: Unions Protect Workers. Why the hell do you think workers needed unions in the first place? Was it because companies were just trying to "survive"?

Oh, and let's talk about concessions and workers giving up benefits to help their company stay afloat. Anyone here work for Caterpillar, or I mean, did anyone here USED to work for Caterpillar? Poor, poor Caterpillar, all they wanted to do was just survive, why did the union want so much from them? Gosh, the company offered them a swell alternative to the corporately managed healthcare plan they had, didn't they? Oh, that's right, they forgot to include the expenses of the union taking over the healthcare. The plan ran out of money because the company neglected to disclose the DISCOUNTS they were receiving for the large group premiums. Shucks, I bet those suits were real sorry about that. I bet they rolled over and did the right thing for the Union, seeing how the Union was trying to do the right thing for them...

Sheezus, I gotta remember that there's a big difference between two pills every six hours and six pills every two hours, I'm starting to hallucinate..

 

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by glmke
unions,unions,unions, Why is always the union fault. I work for Freightliner truck manufacturing plant in Portland Oregon. We were informed that they are moving to mexico in 2010. As a 16 year union member we have given concessions back when asked by the company.They asked for help and we stepped up to the plate.I make a good living(40,000-45,000) yearly. I dont live like a king but live well.Support my wife and three kids and am able to enjoy my hotrod hobby.If you are mad because union workers make good money and have good benifits, remember that workers fought and sacrificed so we can enjoy stuff like 40 hrs work weeks,5 day work weeks,ot pay,holiday pay,vacation pay sick,pay.If you are jealous JOIN A UNION.Freaghtliner will pay mexico workers 50$ a day,but will sell the trucks for the same price.Freightliner made a PROFIT of 7 BILLION last year,so don't blame the union workers, who just want a good job, a good wage and chance to have the american dream. that is my two cents thanks
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...I pretty much agree with you but how can the quality of their product be worth the same money if it's built by people stupid enuf to work for 50 cents a day?...........if Freightliner made 7 billion profit last year, how much will they make paying 50 cents a day to build em?...how much money is enuf?...corporate greed!
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->__________________
exactly what i am saying.Freightliner will double there profit in years to come.quality will go down,profits will rise. We here at freightliner portland plant have always taken pride in are quality,in fact we are the highest rated truck plant in its class. We have the highest efficiency rating of all there truck plants,and we make the most conplex trucks.o well i will survive and learn something new to do but am just tired of all the union bashing out there.Don't believe the media workers for the big three do not make 75$ an hour,if you add all benefits and overtime and hourly wage it adds up to 75$.I bet you add up all your perks you make 75$ hour.Face it people when you send good paying jobs to third world countries we all will suffer. For every job freightliner looses,three more jobs in the portland area will be affected.We have started the killing of the middle class,GOD BLESS AMERICA,o brother!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

For the uninformed: The New York Times writer arrived at that $75 an hour figure that the UAW workers were making by adding up current workers pay+health care+retirement PLUS the retired workers/or their widows retirement pay+health care AND then divided it by the total hours worked to arrive at $75 per hour! TOTAL BULL SHIT!! And the right-wingers that despise every word the New York Times prints took it as the Gospel truth! And as for those of you that blame all these problems on so called "Socialism", don't forget the that the "free market" people that controlled Congress from 1994 to 2006 and the man in the oval office since 2000 have brought you what you have today with the help of gross corruption on all sides. We are repeating 1929 with a similar financial melt down that was caused by greed on Wall Street that the man on the street tried to emulate. The more jobs lost, the bigger it will be. Taking the money out of the pockets of the working man in the middle class will end this country as we know it.

 

(Manufacturing in the USA is dead!

The quicker everyone realizes that the better.
Life is all about changes...and the country is in for a dynamic shift from manufacturing to service oriented jobs.

Get on board or stay behind.)

Copied from earlier post


That is the mentality that is ruining our country. Our country was based on our ability to build and manufacturing.
The owners outsourced our jobs to make more money. The government made free trade deals to make personal advances. If you think we need to GET on board then you are not one of the millions of middle class workers that depend on manufacturing jobs to live. We are not all making our living with our brains, most of use us our hands. The unions are what broke the US slave labor conditions and made life better.
I have been union for 30 years. When my wife and I got married I made more an hour than she did for about 2 years. Now she is making over 20 bucks an hour more than I do. The folks that believe it is the lazy unions fault has been sold another bill of bunk. That large hourly number people hear on TV is way false. Even adding in the total benefits package. Here is another revelation, the BIG three own the insurance companies that are over charging unions for benefits.
And to think folks hear over payed chairmen blame it on the labor and believe it. Go the the country club and see how many union folks you see there. My pay in the union started at 11 and hour after 5 years of school, thirty years later it is $21.50. Now. after 30 years of Hard labor my back is busted and I can't work. To here common folks believe this labor BS is shocking and ignorant to me.
But what do I know.

 

I'll tell ya what "better money" is..............one of the CEOs is on $14,000,000 a year. Thats $1598.17 an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year plus benefits. Why don't they outsource CEO positions to India for what? 50 rupees a day and no benefits. Do that and Detroit would thrive. Don't give me that BS about unions and workers driving Detroit into the ground. Its purely and simply the CEOs and upper management greed. They don't give a rats about anything except their obscene payouts. Screw the workers, screw the plant, screw the future. Gimme now!

 

I apologize for for my rant, no one should have to hear what does on in my head, lol.

All business are struggling. Lets rework fair trade and NAFTA so we American labors and business owners can compete one on one and not against slave labor.
I will pay more for my American made products and work to pay for them.

 

I get a kick out of the guys defending the UAW, like they're not part of the problem. When the secretaries and everyone else got laid off from Lehman brothers, they didn't get to keep their health insurance, pensions, etc. And they didn't get to keep getting paid while they sat on their ass in a jobs bank. The UAW is just as much at fault as the other players in this. And even with the bailout deal that just went down, it was because the UAW refused to make any more concessions. So guess what the alternative is? If W is dumb enough to give the big 3 money under TARP, it's only going to put the whole thing off a while longer. The BS story that bankruptcy is not an option is put forth by the UAW and their supporters because if the automakers file Chapter 11, the UAW loses all its leverage. Chapter 11 is the only chance the Big 3 have to survive.

 

didnt you notice everybody thinks its the unions, but i say its not. The goal of big business is to get rid of the unions so we can get back to the good ol. days. well not many of us left that has seen where we came from.The unions power has been gone for a long time there are a few big union companies but in the long run unions havent the power to do much anymore. Notice all the people wanting health care benefits? because unions havnt been able to keep thier bennies with the corporations. Sorry to be having to write this stuff here but we are in this downturn up to our knees. We lost our basic producing power in the US.

 

392 Hemi. Justify one of the big three CEOs making $1598.17 an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

 

I can understand that statement. Autoworkers(union) have more than most workers in the whole wide world.

But, guess what? The very politicians that they have been voting into office, damocraps, are preparing to bust up their playhouse. And it's about time.
That said, Yes, part of the problem is the unions, but the

REAL PROBLEM IS OVERPRODUCTION OF A PRODUCT THAT IS IN A GLUT. The only way to fix that is to cut back.

 

I can't justify that, and don't agree with that either. But the GM and Ford CEOs offered to work for $1 until their companies are profitable. What did the UAW offer?

 

It's simple. Like it or not, CEOs are hired because they are smarter than most people, can outsmart me and you and know how to run a company. They have to deal with/negotiate with Union bosses. Also they have to protect the company, keep trade secrets and strategy within the company. Pay them less, they will sell out to the next highest bidder. It's business.
Besides they need to be paid just as much as the Union Leaders steal from their own membership.

 

I believe at the first cong. hearing he said he "was comfortable with his pay". At the second meeting he backed down to a $1 a year. Whoopteedoo. After screwing millions out of the company he should be able to survive on a buck a year. Outsource the CEO jobs to India and Detroit will be in good shape.

 

Just my two cents but once the government started mandating emissions, seat belts, 10 mph bumpers, and so on. The prices of cars have skyrocketed. There was a time when you could hit a car at 10 MPH and you barely got a dent, now thanks to Federal mandates it costs 2500 bucks to replace that bumper, this is not adding in the costs of deployed air bags.
Every mandate ordered by the Feds ends up costing the manufacturers millions in R&D but does the government care? Hell no. Not only does it cost the companies more money it also cost the buyer more money which in turn raises the national debt. Then the insurance companies come into play and charge you more money to cover replacement or repair costs.
You can add to the above with such things as exploding Pintos and Chevy pick up trucks that have been fooled with to get the desired results by news agencies that costs everyone in one way or another more money.

Bottom line is, I put quite a bit of the blame on our government via special interest groups and lobbyist that caused the cost of American iron to soar. They in turn began to outsource to keep expenditures lower. So the American buyer turned to Imports to save money in fuel costs, vehicle costs, etc.

Now on top of all this, add on the general laziness of Americans who want their cars loaded, CEO's with salaries that are ski high and golden parachutes, Union management that works both sides of the table, Union pension funds that have grown to astronomical numbers and some, nah, I say many union workers who milk the system.

It all adds up and sooner or later has to come crashing down. BTW, it's not only the automotive industry we'll see this happen to.

 

What he said..... The last thing the union wants is ch11. because then the court in charge of the reorganization will have access to their books! Slammertime!

Except (everybody!) keeps saying "the big three". It won't be the "big three", it'll be (maybe one) of them. Or big cutbacks by one, then the other two will take up the slack. Some will survive! It's Union scare tactics that keeps putting it all in one big lump. It won't come out that way.

 

TOTAL BULLSHIT !!!


Greedy Pricks, plain and simple.

SOMEHOW, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, etc manage to operate
with fewer "managers" per 100 employees, who make
less money (as a multiple of the shop workers rate),
than The Big Three. AND they make money.
Same deal for most big foreign corporations.

How is that possible ?

---

Universities are banging out paper shufflers, who think
a diploma guarantees them six figures for doing Fuck All.
In reality, too many of them contribute absolutely nothing to society.

---

There is a big difference between being motivated by profit,
and being motivated by greed.

 

Why are the secretaries out on the street with no benefits-health insurance-pensions, etc.????? BECAUSE they had NO union to protect them while the fat cats in upper management made lousy decisions betting on risky investments while they took MILLIONS in bonuses and stock options. Did they forfeit or pay back any of that when they left? HELL NO!!!!

And the jobs bank probably was set up to keep skilled workers available to be called back because its not cheap to train someone to replace them. The company agreed to it for a reason because no union has that kind of power.

Bankruptcy is not an option in a product oriented industry. It is just something that will drive what ever customers left out there to your competition that is FOREIGN owned. It's funny that the UAW was expected to give this up but the banks, investors, suppliers and dealers weren't at the table to take their medicine, just the UAW. That's why they would take a bankruptcy judge before the crap from the fat cat Senators. Why don't we ask those same Senators who had a big hand in causing this mess take a big pay cut from their salaries with automatic pay increases and take away their lifetime health care and generous pensions paid for by YOU!!

Go ahead take the whole thing down, and see where we will be in a few years. Everyone will pay a price for it.

People have been brainwashed in this country by big business and big money interests to the detriment of their own economic self interest.

 

i think whats really happening all over the world is were getting to a point where constant growth is no longer possiable, the planet is only so big and can support only so many people, no growth means recession, depression, its comeing world wide, but what does that really mean its all just numbers on wall st. weres it all going to end who knows. as for detroit i wish they still made simple cars that we could all enjoy working on.

 

Well said. I too, will adapt, to any recession, and not whine, even a little bit. Life is Good, some days it's tough, then you die.

 

Ever see the movie "Other People's Money" ?

My favorite quote, in that movie, from Danny Devito :

"How are you going to fell when YOUR job
gets sent to some Shithole country,
where they don't give a Fuck about
Human Rights or pollution?"

 

I have heard the labor costs per car in Detroit is only $800.00, and these guys only make about $28.00 per hour, that is $3.00 more per hour than Toyota in the USA, does not sound like a big difference.

GM's CEO's income last year was almost half the yearly loss of the company. That's a fucking sin. I am not in a union, but the labor cost does not sound like much to me. I know the union is trying to make GM make good on the pension debt obligation, that's quite a bit of money. I think the UAW will get shafted on this, just like the steel guys did a few years ago.

For a bunch of Hot Rodders, there are a lot of well informed people here. Great input.

 

without the big 3, nearly the entire domestic auto parts pipeline will dry up, as all of those companies that manufacture their parts, generally manufacture ours as well. a vendor such as sealed power can't survive something like that.

 

Yeah, their salary for the year will be $1. I wonder what their comps are worth? I wonder how many shares they'll sell back to their own companies?

This $1 a year bullcrap is for us common folks, the ones that fall for that crap and don't realize how much these bastards actually get. Don't fall for the B.S., when the socialists get rid of the Unions then you'll all cry because there won't be any standard for non-Union companies to compete against...

Call a liar for what he is; these suits are all liars, every one of them.

 

I put a lot of the blame on all the free health care the walking dead of this country receive right up until the time they take their last, rattling breath...

 

29 nash please stop typing and go away!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

All I know is that poverty breeds crime and our prisons are already overcrowded. It's going to get sticky.

 

Still don't see anything what concessions the UAW offered to make. I dunno, but I'd rather have a job and make a bit less than have no job and no prospect of finding one, which is going to be the case for a lotta folks in the very near future.