Gassers...Successful Suspension Designs, Theories, or Pics...Lets Discuss!!

arching springs UP never holds. you can add a leaf when you arch it up and it'll hold a little longer but the spring will always want to go back to it's original shape once weight is put back on it. dearching springs is ok because you have gravity working WITH you not AGAINST you.


while blocks are not always the best route they realy are not as bad as what you are making them out to be. there is a limit though. any more than 4" is a no no and stacking multiple blocks of any height can be bad news. it's a stability thing. in fact in most states 4" is the maximum legal limit for lift or lowering blocks.

i just spent a couple hours last night scouring my G***ER WARS book and another vintage drag car book and i was shocked at the number of cars WITH lift blocks being used. i'm not saying everything that was done back in the day was the safest possible way or that lift blocks are the way to go but if you do it correctly and use top notch materials i see no reason for concern... just remember to NEVER reuse U-bolts. i would shy away from the U-bolts you can get at the parts store too if you plan to race the car much. they are of adequate quality i'm sure but in a high stress situation i would feel safer with some high strength U-bolts from a regular spring shop used in conjunction with hardened washers and hardened deep nuts torqued to the recommended amount for the U-bolt diameter.

i'm not just pulling this **** out of my *** here. i spent several years working in a professional spring shop working on all types of factory and custom suspension systems and have spent the past 12 year since then working on and studying suspensions.

 

..and that qualifies them to build G***ers ?

 

I don't think so. But they do know a thing or two about lift blocks and steering geometry.

Spring rates are an important issue. I have seen the Speedway ones and they don't look as if they offer much travel (stiff). Are stiff springs the ticket or should a soft spring with good travel better?


******Knuckles

 

Lower spring rate means more travel.

 

Spring rates are an important issue. I have seen the Speedway ones and they don't look as if they offer much travel (stiff). Are stiff springs the ticket or should a soft spring with good travel better?


******Knuckles[/quote]

That's a good question. I have long, relatively soft front springs. They ride very nice....but when I launch hard, the axle does not come up with the car because there is lots of spring travel. The frame twists a lot, which I'm currently puttind a cage in. But I was told by some old timers that raced back then to limit the travel on my front springs with a cable or chain. This would add the weight of the axle and wheels to the front of the frame, especially the side that lifts the most. The car goes straight, but twists quite a bit. The front windhield corner is pulling out. I'm by no means a ch***is spe******t and I haven't tried this yet, any thoughts?

 

dragsters have solid mounted rear axles if that tells you anything. the more movement you have in your ch***is the more power is taken away from acceleration. doin wheelies looks cool but it will cut your overall ET as well.
i think in a g***er the idea was to get the weight unloaded from the front suspension so that all the weight was on the rear. this was, in effect, to help overcome the tire's shortcomings. as tire compounds changed so did suspension setups.
90/10 shocks helped do this. they would rise to the top of their travel very easily allowing the front end to come up with very little resistance but on the way back down it was a different story... with many of these g***er i believe you want the front end to come up but not off the ground. this gets the majority of the weight on the rear tires to aid in traction.

 

dragrcr50 - in looking at the second pic of yours:

Should you consider extending your ******* bars so that the snubber contacts the spring eye, rather than the spring as yours does? I always thought this was a bad thing to do with this setup. Someone enlighten me, as I may have been told wrong years ago.

 

makes sense to me to have it hit the spring eye. i guess if it was close it might make little difference but i would think that idealy you would want it on the spring eye.

 

I always extended mine enough that the snubber hit under front spring pearch. I've seen springs bent where the snubber hit them.
I woud also install a u-bolt that would attach to the traction bar and go around the spring to limit the downward travel of the traction bar and keep it from hitting the ground and digging in if something happens like the rear end locking up or ?????. I've seen it happen before.
Larry T

http://www.compe***ionengineering.com/catalog/CategoryDisplay.asp?CatCode=10001

 

Very good point.




******Knuckles

 

Here's an old post with lots of pics........
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240249

 

Dude, that's a great post! How didn't it take off?

Thanks for the pics.


******Knuckles

 

Take a look at ShakeyPuddin. No lift blocks, cross-steering, good caster. Nuff said.

 

I would like to hear from those that run blocks or have ran blocks in the past.

We all know that (front) blocks on a 4x4 are a definate no no but what are the drawbacks or positives with lift blocks on the front a g***er?

I have to admit that I know for a fact that alot of cars back then ran blocks. It appearantly wasn't of much concern.

So lets hear this one.


******Knuckles

 

i think it should be done too, however i didnt build them and it drives and leaves so straight and drives so good . Ill just have to see how it does with twice the horsepower i had last year, it may need more than *******s. I thought id leave it lookin that way for a while, I always get hammered for having purpose built race cars instead of old ****ty looking ones...so i thought id leave it with outdated suspension and see if i can make it work somewhat . all i want is 10.0's out of it anyway

 

since when and why??? my 4x4 has 4" blocks out back. i've thrashed on it on the street and offroad and never had an issue. the ideal situation is a lift spring but blocks up to 4" are totaly fine. i did this **** for yours. they guy tht owned the spring shop i worked at was a huge 4x4 nut and i learned ALOT from him and from my shop foreman who has an engineers mind (just not the degree) and was a genius with suspensions (and all things mechanical). we built countless lifted 4x4s for my boss and customers. i even got to help on research, development, testing and building of an actual car crushing monster truck while i was there. it used to be called "Slick Willy" but is now known as "Little Miss Dangerous". it was built to hang with the million dollar rigs but was alot lower tech with alot smaller budget.
point is i've been around this **** and this is the first i've heard of "blocks period" being a "no no". past 4" i can see it being a problem but i think your overstating things.... and why are we talking about 4x4s anyways???

 

Holy ****! HAMBers are going crazy over this! I have my gandfather's '62 special, I've allways thought of a nailhead in it. BUT THE CAR DOESN'T HAVE A FRAME!!! Just a unibody. Gotta tie it all together somehow. Old school is with 2x4 box, or tube & a cage. All these posts make me want to get it running this year. Good luck with yours!

 

We shouldn't be talking about 4x4s at all but it was brought up for the sake of discussion.

That being said I think you missed where the blocks were located on the 4x4. We are talking about the front here. I know that blocks in the rear are fine. I don't believe for a minute that any one of the countless 4x4s that you built had lift blocks in the front.

I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear on the location of the blocks but it was stated earlier in the thread when we were talking about g***ers with blocks up front.

I'm also sorry that you got bent out of shape over this. I never once doubted your knowledge and believe that you are well rounded in the suspension field but understand that there is alot that you may not know about me either.

So back on track...

What are the pros and cons of lift blocks on the front of a straight axle g***er?




******Knuckles



BTW...Kustombuilder I do appreciate your p***ion on this. I think it was just a misunderstanding.

 

What you are calling 'rollers' are a pivot point, had you looked at the photo you should have noticed that the lower bar and the rear half of the spring actually make a 4-link system that would control the caster change due to suspension travel during a run. I don't see anything that would contribute to "wicked bumpsteer", what I do see is some forward thinking during a time that ch***is were evolving from g***ers with basically modified stock frames into blown F/X cars with purpose built ch***is.

CC

 

I saw this set up and it wasn't clear what was going on. Now that you explained it, it makes sense.
That's actually pretty neat design.

Thanks,


******Knuckles

 

How do you narrow the econoline axle ? I know remove the amount and weld, but what kind of welder, isn't that pretty thick to get good penetration ?
Another question is looking through the old mags and books, there seem to be a lot of stock ch***is and axles on the small Willys, Austins and Anglias. How did these axles hold up ?

 

Those axles always looked a bit small to have a heavy engine with a heavy foot and good traction. They never looked strong enough to handle a wheel stand but I've seen many of them.



******Knuckles

 

I'm aware that the bars in the AWB Comet create a 4-link, I just don't see why. With a parrallel leaf setup, the caster change as the suspension cycles is minimal.

The idea that a short steering arm creates bumpsteer, is purely geometry. The longer a radius, the longer the distance between degree marks as it pivots on its point of origin. Thus, the longer your steering link is, the more the suspension can move before the arm pushes it's pivot, which in this case is the arm from the steering box. So the longer the arm, the more flex in the suspension you have before the steering wheel moves. And if you have your hand is on the wheel, the tires will move, changing the direction the car is going. And that is the definition of bumpsteer as far as I am aware.

I'm not pulling this out of my ***, it's purely math. I can say with confidence, that a cross-steer setup is great on the street, even with a comfortable front spring rate. I'm running my steering link to the p***enger spindle and I have had no problems in the 3500+ street miles I've put on my setup.

According to the article by Steve Magnante in the comeback issue of Hot Rod Deluxe, the best weld to use when narrowing a forged axle is arc. I personally used TIG on my axle, with stainless filler rod because I didn't have access to an arc welder. I didn't paint it, in order to aid in inspection of the weld, and have had zero problems.

Go ahead and run lift blocks. It doesn't matter to me. I've run lift, and lowering blocks and have had no problems with either. I still wouldn't run blocks in the front. I've always been told it's a bad idea, and so I tell you all that I think the same thing.

 

i'm actually not realy worried about. not even a little. your en***led to your opinion.

 

I can see that they chose to use a short drag link on Hayden's car. I'm guessing they went that way because the pan would have made it hard to use a cross link setup. I notice that they did get the link parallel to the ground though, that's a really important detail if you're running a short drag link. When you consider that most parallel leaf front axles don't have a lot of travel, this car might have been fine to drive. The ideal setup would be a long drag link with both ends an equal distance from the ground at ride height. Of course that's not always possible.

I think small spacers under the front axle are fine, many heavy trucks come from the factory with spacers under the front springs. But most of those spacers are only about an inch or two. I think I'd feel safe enough with a maximum of three or four inches but I'd want to be sure to have good U bolts not U bolts I made out of a length of threaded rod.

 

Even though I'm bulding a straight axle g***er I do agree that not all g***ers had them! Contact this dude - 60man - a HAMB member.
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/member.php?u=25141
He's an awesome guy and runs a wicked Pontiac that is strong as hell. He can provide you with a ton of info on how to set up your cars suspension.

Gas

 

another GREAT source for pics and info and HISTORY aside from the book "G***ER WARS" is http://g***ermadness.com/

...i just took the first of the Hot Rod 101 cl***es today at Hot Rod Ch***is and Cycle in Addison Illinois today. Kevin Tully realy knows his **** when you started talking ch***is. the "G***er" they are building will have alot more sophisticated ch***is than the g***ers of old but Kevin wants this car to be fast and most importantly he wants it to p*** NHRA tech so he can actually race it.
we did discuss earlier ch***is designs also. all in all it was a great cl***. i highly recommend it. if you don't know about it find the "Hot Rod 101" post.

 

Yep.



******Knuckles

 

What was your thought on using the stainless fill rod on the axle? What grade of stainless?