Hot Rods Modified Murray: BIG set-back. Lesson learned??

Here's a Hemi sleeve thread for reference: (maybe you've checked it over again, since you posted on it)
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=292239&highlight=hemi+sleeve&showall=1



Malcolm

 

Where are those damn SNUGGLERS when somebody really needs a hug? Chin up amigo.

 

On a budget, you could sleeve one cylinder smaller, install an oddball piston and run it. This is what we used to do with stock car motors, we'd have the #1 cylinder stock bore and the rest of the motor would be .060 over. If we were protested and the track decided to "puff" the motor, we'd just give them the #1 cylinder and they never batted an eye.

The above applies if you trust the rest of the sleeve job.

Bob

 

Damn dude! Sorry to hear this. Remember, It's just a hurdle man, you won't care once you're over it! Find a good block and keep on truckin...

 

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I feel your pain; setbacks happen to all of us..........(now your due for some good luck)<o></o>
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I figure, "If it was easy to build unique, hi-quality hot rods, everyone could (or would) it"........ <o></o>

 

That sucks!

I seriously doubt you could sleeve that hole. When you bore the cylinder larger to fit the sleeve, you are going to cut all the way into the water jacket. This is pretty common when sleeving a cylnder...however, since your crack is so far down in the hole, there most likely won't be enough meat to keep the sleeve "water tight".

Besides, why take the chance of having to do this all over again if it leaks? And even if it does seal, is it just going to crack another cylinder later on from being too thin? Sleeving 8 holes is not going to be as cost effective as replacing the block.

I went through this exact same dilemma with the first 265 we were building for my roadster....we just didn't get to the point of actually firing it up, but almost all the machinework was already done when we found a crack (in a similar spot) that was missed during magnaflux.

331 blocks are still out there, but then you are also faced with buying new pistons as well. Finding a 354 block would be preferable, but that may be a bit harder to find.

Good luck...I hate it when stuff like this happens.

 

And I'm with Dave on the compression...you're gonna want more than that!

Probably a blessing in disguise. Maybe start saving up $750 for some new Ross pistons and try to find a bare 331 block with main caps.

 

If it makes you feel better I had a similar problem with a project I bought. It was supposed to be a professional rebuild on a 392 and I did talk to the shop guy who said he did the work. Well all the parts were new and it had a good .030 bore with new Arias pistons but the enginewas gunked up in the oil passages, the cam bearings were put in wrong no oil to the left bank of rockers, pistons were hung wrong, crank bearings were to tight, and valve job was for shit. I had to do the whole think over except the boring. I feel your pain.

 

I say take it to the engine shop to let them see it firsthand and to discuss the options. In other words, don't do the diagnosis over the phone or the internet. Maybe it can be saved for a reasonable cost. Maybe there's a cheaper but riskier way to use what you have for now, if you're inclined to and if it's worth the trouble.

And, I'm sending you a PM.

 

If it were me I'd start shopping for a 354 poly block. You could buy a whole '56 Chrysler parts car for the cost of sleeving this junk block. They're not all that hard to come by and they're not so rare that I'd personally fuck around with a long bell.

Of course, Wisconsin has yards full of rotted out parts cars with good blocks so maybe I'm spoiled. If it did work out you could part out the Chrysler for what you paid and get your block for free, and you'd end up with a 354 instead of a 331.

 

Hey sorry to hear about the motor mite want to wait for the big 3 down here in dago have seen 354 truck blocks there in the past. not that it helps but I sold a complete 58 truck 354 w low miles had gotten water in # 1 hole on craigslist for $500
they are still around

 

yeah - then you can some here and have fun drinking while you shop.

 

Scooter-

Sorry to hear about your setback. I'd just keep pushing forward with the fabrication and keep my eyes open for a new motor.

 

Hey guys! Thanks for all the encouraging words. I do agree that it is a blessing in disguise. The monster over-bore ALWAYS made me a little queezy and I REALLY didn't like the fact that I was going to have a lower compression.

I woke up at 5:30 sharp this morning wide-awake thinking about all this. It's a new day and I'm going to finish taring it apart and taking some pictures as I go. Thinking about doing a little "tap tap tap" on the areas where it looks bad to see how think everything is. The block is pretty much junk anyway. As BASS said above, the sleeves would never seal right and it's not worth investing the money into a block like that only to risk other issues.

So... here's what I think is going to happen...

I've got a 331 long bell block (it's a '54 block, strangely enough. NOT a '53). It has most of the machine work done to it already and has already been checked out. It will need a final hone for the new pistons and I will have to pick up a different flywheel to work with the extended bell starter because of it's unique tooth count. I pretty much have everything else.

While I'm at it, I'm going to either send this cam out for a regrind or just pick up a new one and get springs accordingly. That will be a good chance to see how the valve fitment is in the guides. I'll do them if needed. I'm thinking a 10:1 or 10.5:1 pistons, decent lumpy grind (but not too crazy) on the cam, etc. Going to have to sell off some things to make it happen, but it will happen.

Things will be fine. In fact, I think they will be BETTER!!!!!

I'll post some more pictures here later.

Thanks again for listening to me guys!

Cheers!

 

Too bad you aren't closer, I'da sold that 331 I just had to you for a hunnert and half instead of the guy who ended up with it! Have you talked to a machine shop about having it sleeved yet? I've seen stuff sleeved that I wouldn't have believed was saveable.

Good luck, and thanks for the info on the 331.

Brian

OOPS, I didn't read your last post! Sounds like you've got it under control. It'll all work out!

Brian

 

I would sonic check on every cylinder in that block before you do anything.

You might find enough meat everywhere else, but a casting flaw made that spot a little thin. A low compresion motor can live with as little as .100" cylinder thickness and be ok, as long as its not in a thrust area and not at the top of the bore. I can't tell where that crack is.

If its thick enough, drill the ends of the crack, sleeve it, and do a short fill of Hardblock to stabilize the cylinders.

 

You've got the right attitude Scoot, your last post made me feel better for sure! Turn lemons into lemonade

Yep, it is a definite downer, but one more obstacle that you will overcome. When you need a little cheering up, look at the before picture of what you started with, & than the latest pictures that you have-you have made a ton of killer progress creating your car.

And it could always be worse. You could almost finish your car & then get out the sawzall and cut it into little pieces like somebody else that I know

Dan

 

that's the spirit man... sounds like you will have a much more streetable hot rod when you are finished, too.

 

every day i get on the hamb,i look to see if any more progress has been made on your build.looks like whatever comes your way,you are capable of dealing with it.cant wait to see finished product.great pictures and posts.

 

Need Snuggles...RD out

 

(snicker) Right!?? HAHA!!

 

Okay kids... it's apart.



I found good things, but I also found a whooooole lot of bad things!!

Let's start with the BAAAAAD! Every damn cylinder is cracked!!!!!! Holy bujeezuzzzz....

Here's the two worst ones #2 and #5 (I think it was)





The picture below is what the others looked like in varrying degrees....



Unless someone wants a block for mock-up, this thing goes to it's grave.

Now... on with the GOOD!

The pistons are spotless (just slimey, of course ) and can be used by someone rebuilding a 392. They will go up for sale.



The rods were also fine. Even the bearings look just fine and might even be able to be reused because the crank journals and surfaces look just fine as well. Was definitely a fresh rebuild...



I'm going to have everything looked at but I want some special attention to go to this crank. It had some strange counter-weighting done. Never seen it done like this and it definitely didn't looke like they did a very "clean" job of it. The crank was even discolored where one of the weights had been ground.







Sorta' scary, huh??

I think the cam is probably good to send out for a regrind.





So that's that. At least I have some things I can work with.

I'm super anxious to get on it. Since I will no longer have any short bell blocks I'm going to go ahead and sell off all the transmission adapter stuff to help fund the rebuild. Going to get with Ross on some pistons, Gary Staufford at Quality Engineered Components in Bend, Oregon had mentioned to me awhile back about having some cam grinding done to some unique specs, and I'll get with Pat at Wilcap about the flywheel I need for the extended bell.

Again, thank you everyone for the encouraging words! I'm too far into this to slow down now! Busy build weekends and long nights will continue until the car is driving solid!

Cheers!!!

 

Hey Scooter, good to see the rest of the photos. DO NOT throw the block away. You do know that they quit making them.... I see a couple of options; sleeve all 8 holes and go back to smaller bore, something with an easy to source ring diameter-Ross will make the pistons any size you need. For the nay-sayers, yes, 8 wet sleeves will be expensive, so who wants to sell and ship a block at a good guy price????
Or, unless you really need more than the factory 9½ or 10 comp, use a 392 block with the pistons you have. Since your car is already set up for the later block it may be less hassle. The downside of the 392 is the 'current price structure'....but then you do get a 392.
Yes the balance weights on the crank are as sloppy as I have ever seen. They really need to be replaced if the crank is ever used. Another really scary part of one photo is the blob of red rtv in the rear main cap in the oil passage. That shit will destroy an engine.
With regards to the cam, it appears, from the photo, that it may have already been cut. No worries, we can run it through the CamDoctor and see what it is and decide if its worth using or just make up something else 'special' when you sort out everything else.


Keep a stiff upper lip and all that rot

Gary

.

 

Talk about some thin cylinder walls..That sucks..I really dont like how the crank was balanced.
Sounds like you have a good plan going.

 

Hey are all the cracks at the bottom and vertical? if they are below the rings and not on the skirt area they can be tigged n ground down where there is no interference with the piston seen one antique block done that way and it worked maybe it's crazy but cheap to try

 

Hey Scooter!
I would like to help you out a bit there and save you some money and grief.
I have been building Hemis since the 60's and regularly bore the crap out of them.
Before you go radical, put the engine on a stand and flush out the coolant.
The get some of this.. http://www.pitstopusa.com/SearchResult.aspx?Manufacturer=369 and follow directions and fill the block up over the place where it is leaking.
If it is on the inside high near the valley, rotate the engine so that it will fill that area.
You can fill the block up to the freeze plung with no heat issues at all.
What you have is a pit in the wall on the water side, which could have been caused by simple rust, or by a lump in the castin mold.
Try this first, and see what happens.
Also of course, takes some fine sandpaper and smooth out the fuzzy place in the cylinder wall.
Later!
Fran Olson PS: Here is my website, such as it is, unfinished... http://foxengineering-efi-fuel-injection-hemi-gasser-mopar.com/

 

cut it half and have you a hemi 4!

 

That crank balance weighting is fucked up.
I would be very scared to leave that in case it comes off at some point..Id grind it all back to original metal, and rebalance the crank properly, with mallory metal.

 

Block is out and the show must go on... I have the mock-up block in place and I'll send the other block that will be used off to the machine shop in a couple weeks just to DOUBLE verify it's okay. The first machinist that did the work was good and been doing it for years, but there has been issues with him lately so we're switching to someone new and I just want to be safe.



I can get back to work on the rest of the car while I'm getting things out the door, checked out and the other block ready, the cranked rebalanced, etc.

Gary, I'm definitely curious what you find out about the cam. Going to send it off to you in a couple weeks to see what on earth we got here.

The other block will go in the corner (with a dunce cap) until I figure out what on earth to do with it. I'm going to ask the machinist about sleeving it, but I suspect the investment won't be worth it for this project.

All the short bell adapters will be going up for sale as well as the 392 pistons if anyone is interested. I need to sell them to get this started.





Onward and upward...