Well....I was a bodyman and painter for Don's Hot Rods in Germantown, Ohio all through the 90's, and then for a couple projects in '99-'02. I bodyworked and painted two cars that went on to win the Don Ridler award/ AMBR @ the Oakland Roadster show. Is that what you mean by "experienced bodyman"?? sorry- I had to bring that up- just one time
I can guarantee you didn't fill holes by gluing metal patches on from behind and then filling them up with filler.
Right- but the O/P says that he doesn't presently have the shop equipment available to weld in patches- so what are his options? I ***ume he's not talking about a $500K ISCA indoor show car. That was the point of my post. I have a 58 F100 with rust pinholes in the inner fenders and core support. Guess what? I'm going to use Fibergl*** resin because it's a driver. It doesn't make anyone look like a hero on the HAMB to admit this, and I know that there are alot of guys here that are very serious about fab'ing their traditional rides, and i respect that. But a professional knows what works for a given application. Would you use a forged crank, balanced ***embly, and solid roller cam to shift @ 5000 rpm's if you didn't have to?
Don't get me wrong, I do plenty of things wrong, and I am constantly regretting not really getting things "right", even things I did just yesterday... Oh well,,, But I have to mention that just because a person is great at what he does and knows a totally "right" way to make a repair, this does not mean that there is not another right way of making the same repair on a given car. Even beyond this point, a repair that is right and proper for an original all steel Deuce (or insert your choice of rare or high buck car here) might be overkill on a 60 Dodge Seneca... My line of thinking is that bonded panels on a 60 Dodge Seneca can be more than ok.... and even beyond this, with the advances in adhesives, it probably has applications in higher end builds as well. As these chemicals get better and better welding body panels will become somewhat of a lost art.... (like body solder..) kind of ****s,, but reality is reality... Back when I was a kid I did a lot of body work on my 39, I did not have the HAMB or any Internet help, (Al Gore had not invented the Internet yet) I had a big *** arc welder and a oxy/acetylene and absolutely no welding experience. I did the bes I could do with no one to show me how. I sandblasted every last bit of rust from my 39 and then used fibergl*** to fix the holes. That **** stayed in and hooked for 20+ (25?) years until I cut it out late last year... There is no freaking way I would do that now. It was ugly from the back side, but it did not crack come loose or fall out.... it did work...
Most of us know the right way and wrong way of repairs.. but also for some, its the money factor.. or an experience factor.. its about the person that enjoys old cars and would like to make it look presentable with out spending the lots of money he may not have..
nothing wrong with a skim coat of filler over proper metal work, i don't think there is anything deeper then 1/64 anywhere on my car,and thats the most, fibergl*** can be used, if done properly,i mean they make cars out of the stuff. i have a 1- 1/2 inch square in my roof, not because i couldn't put in sheet metal, but because there is an XM radio antenna under it. they can't see through steel. it's been on there several years with no problems or shrinkage. it was put over clean metal,and primed and painted over. with the rust holes if you are just trying to keep water out, you could try that clear duct tape until you fix them right. i have a few pieces of that where i have body clips normally,until i put the trim back in. just to keep out the weather. also there are some good filllers,i've had good luck with the nappa house brands, just don't use the B stuff.
Ok- one more post before i overdo it. I'm right on with everything you said....... BUT, I honestly don't think that polymers will ever really take the place of metalwork. I hope not, anyway. That's what's beautiful about this craft....in the same way that m***-produced cars will never be hand-built cars. Period. This is way O/T, but completely fabricated from aluminum for Bob reed's '47 Ford. Although it was upholstered, with a little more fab time, it could have been polished. You could do this in plastic and then paint with "chrome" paint, but we know it wouldn't be the same, right?
do it once and do it right, id run the rust before i gummed it up, its just more work in the long run anyways.
I agree. I just didn't want a bunch of guys tell the original poster that adhesives are designed to do what he is proposing to do. They are not. Will it work. Yes but only to a point and if he is expecting to not see exactly where those patches have been put he will be sorely disappointed and he needs to be told this not that adhesives are used everyday in a body shop. They are not used for this type of repair in any reputable body shop. If he doesn't care then this will work perfectly for his situation and is a very good alternative probably the best given his situation. On a side note there are some adhesives being made by companies like Evercoat and Wurth that are two part but operate in a regular caulking gun rather than the expensive speciallized guns that most of the others require.
60 Dodge Seneca? fix it however you want, you'll never fix the ugly off that car! I've had my 61 Seneca for 17 years and it is still just as ugly as the day I bought it.
i remember watching a uncle who is a vehicle painting and panel beating head teacher, he glued some patches onto his duaghters car, i thought he was nuts but he said it was in some ways better alternatve to welding in some of the areas. so i thought i would give it a try, i contacted the supplier and ordered some, it was $60 australian a tube, the tube was 2 parts with a mixing nozle, what i didnt realise was i needed a gun to apply it, i rang the shop back and the gun was about $160, so i tried to use it without the gun and stuffed it, that was about 13 years ago, maybe its cheaper now, it would be interesting to see some comparisions on corrosion, heating and cooling, bending and bashing of glued, tiged, miged and oxy welded patches. there is definately a advantage doing repairs neer fuel tanks and body deadener with glue and ofcourse it wouldnt brittle the metal but would the overlap and glue make that section surrounding the patch too rigid? in a tough time for a quick repair i would clean the metal all rust free, sandblasting probably isnt practical, just use some 60 or 80, a grinder and a twist knot cup brush on the grinder, scrub in some deoxidiser with a scourer, let it start to dry, rinse it with the scourer then spray it in metho then wipe it dry, leave it to dry out for a hour or so and just brush on some epoxy primer, let it sit for a few days and fill the hole with some fibregl*** filler, cut down the fibregl*** filler and put your normal filler on top, epoxy primer it again with the gun, let it sit for about 30 minutes and put some primer on. you really need to try and clean the back of the metal being repaired and get it covered in the epoxy, dont leave the repair in primer too long.
Code: I sandblasted every last bit of rust from my 39 and then used fibergl*** to fix the holes. That **** stayed in and hooked for 20+ (25?) years until I cut it out late last year... I used this method on a show winning 55 chevy on the rockers. The customer did not want to blast the whole car apart to replace the rockers for two little rust holes( one on each side). He wanted a quick repair to get it through the show season, after which he was to bring it back for full rocker replacements. That was about three years ago and he still hasn't put in the full rockers. I'm not saying this is a "correct repair", but a temperary fix. Sure it will have problems eventually, but if you go into it as a temp. fix, but do it right, it will give you a long time before you have to worry about it. If you eventually plan on painting the whole car, I see no problems with this type of repair. It will buy you time to get everything else worked out. Besides, pretty paint should be the last thing on the list on a build, right.
If you have to mud up rust holes use a product called U-POL FiberAll. It is an all fiberbl*** based material. Long strand fibers and uses a cream hardner. It doesn't have the Talc base that even duragl*** body filler has. Talc absorbs water hence pops the bondo job. I would blast the area, epoxy prime and then use the FiberAll. that just my 2 cents
WELD IT. Do it right, the panel bond is not made for patch panels, it is made to glue full replacement panels at the pinchweld. You NEVER overlap two pieces of metal whether it glue or weld, this will create a high spot that sticks out like a sore thumb. If you overlap and glue you now have a hard edge that you are trying to cover up with filler, in time the filler WILL crack and then you end up with moisture behind the filler. All of you that are suggesting this method should keep quiet, all you are doing is setting him up for failure in the future. If any of you claim to be a "pro" then you should know the correct way to make a repair and should advise others not to do it the wrong way.
Before I knew better.....well to be honest even then I knew better but it didn't stop me.......the material of choice was fibergl***. Purely budget driven. Rust doesn't sleep, and you need to do an excellent job of cleaning up the holes and surrounding areas. Then you need to treat the metal with some kind of rust preventer that won't cause issues with the fibergl***. Material list Fibergl*** resin/activator, just plain old clear stuff. Fibergl*** mat, plain woven cloth Can of tiger hair/activator. It actually has a tiger on the can. Disposable mixing cups and a box of sturdy tongue depressors Well ventilated area and gauntlet style rubber gloves. Lot of 80 grit, 2 or 3 sanding blocks of ***orted types. Electric jitterbug sander will save a lot of time in-process but shouldn't touch the final surface. Once you get started, it's kind of a free form sculpture thing.... You can soak the mat in clear resin, super duper strong but hard to keep positioned for cure. You can mush the tiger hair into strips of mat and do paper machie type stuff You can use scissors to cut off short strands of the mat, combine with resin and make your own tiger hair type goo of varying viscosity You can thin down or thicken pre-made tiger hair with resin or strands. You can totally macguyver whatever it takes to support the gl*** during drying Exterior panels should have the majority of the patch on the inside This is a multi-step process and should end with a light skim coat of bondo on the outside, and a heavy layer of undercoat everywhere else. There's a couple cars still around after 15 or so years, and the repairs have held up awesome. We're talking wheelhouse, lower quarter, & trunk floor rot. I can say with all confidence that my fibergl*** saved those cars because no owners since could or would do $4k of metal repair to those cars. Will somebody restore one of those cars and curse my hackery?? Maybe. But until then people will keep admiring the hackery, and the car won't be crushed because of the admiration.....thus making it available for true resto someday......see the circle close? Gl*** it up, prime it up, then shut up about how you got there. Good luck
I think the point was he was looking for an alternative to welding. As I said, the methods I have proposed will all work for years. No it is not a permanant solution. Given the time and budget for a repair, this is a cost effective alternative that will get rid of the rust and prevent spread. And, when you do a patch panel, depending on the weld used(mig,tig,torch), It is best to flange the patch panel so the seam is flush. Unless you are a pro with the torch. Mig and tig are a much harder weld, so hammer and dolly work is much tougher as the weld is usually harder than the metal. Where as the torch method is much better for hammer and dolly work. The only time I **** weld panels is when I'm chopping tops, other than that, its flanged patch panels. I will always weld in my panels and metal finish my work, but that is what I do for a living, so tools needed to do the job are never in question. But, if nesessary, I would not hesitate to use fibergl*** or panel bond if I had to for a temp. fix. I don't think anyone is suggesting he butch the car. Just trying to help out a fellow rodder in a budget situation.
Yep. Fibergl*** resin and matte (not suggesting plastic filler or panel bonding adhesive), done correctly, will last indefinitely. There is no doubt about it. People repeating horror stories about "Bondo" falling out of rust holes, and complaining about glue-ing in metal patches with bonding adhesives......I dunno- seems like they just like to complain. Fibergl*** Resin/Matte is not a "Filler"- it's not a type of bondo. It is structural, it seals its self up completely both front and back, will conform to any shape easily, and is relatively thin and lightweight. The stuff is rock hard and relentless. if you disagree you most likely have no experience with it. Not to beat a dead horse, but if those commenting would read the original post and actually address what's been asked: That is, the OP didn't ask if he should weld or not --WE ALL KNOW THAT IS THE MOST IDEAL OPTION.. He simply asked what type of product would work best.
And, when you do a patch panel, depending on the weld used(mig,tig,torch), It is best to flange the patch panel so the seam is flush. it's quickest and easiest to flange and overlap, it is best to **** weld. you spend a lot more time fitting the patch, but I think it is worth it.
Anyone really getting on their high horse about fibergl*** has obviously never seen a poorly installed "fully welded" patch panel rust out all around the moisture-trapping flange or pinholed weld after a couple years of winter driving exposure. Unless the metalwork is high quality, you can do better with a fibergl*** job & some attention to detail.........
I've no experience using panel bonding adhesives but have used PC-7 with good results. PC-7 is a 1:1 formulation, black and gray, with a very sticky consistency and a long cure time. My most successful use includes flanging either the patch or the base metal, drilling and dimpling the mating surfaces for countersunk pop rivets, then going to town. The long set time for the PC7 means that any leftover from the glue-up can be used to begin the filler process. If you're careful with your preparation, you can easily get to the '1/16" or less' filler standard. YMMV, as always. Cheers -- Gary
Not really. Pop rivets fail for the same reason flanged and welded panels fail, the overlap is a haven for moisture. Pop rovets are even worse because they aren't sealed in the least bit. Know how many pop riveted and bondod patch panels I've scrubbed off?
Your right completely on this .A master body man or anyone that has done lots of patchwork ,knows that patch panels are best if **** welded.Flanging the panel ,leaves it wide open for future rust issues ,unless you weld both sides ,and then your causing double shrinkage .Its always best to **** weld with the smallest gap between them you can get.Usually people that are starting out ,begin with flange welds .Then after they get some practice under their belt ,move on to **** welds .Not trying to start nutton ,just stating facts ...
Remind me to never get any work done by you. Flanging a panel is the worst of all possible scenarios as you have now created a pocket for moisture and debris to collect. **** welding panels is the only right way to do it. There are short cuts but tht doesn't make them right. FYI Tig welding leaves quite a soft weld which can easily be hammered, not as soft as O/A but still very workable.
a lot of the bondo falling out is from people who get some of it,and just slap it in a rust hole with no prep or any other kind of work. also there are much better fillers then those made by bondo. thats a dirty word in my book. any company that sells a filler in a spray can that you set the car in the sun to cure, well no comments need to be made about that. we did a lot of the slap the bondo in the hole up north,when i was a kid,but those cars were usually so far gone, that they were going to be junked anyway. it was just to keep the freezing ohio air out,and keep the slush from splashing into the car.
Ok, to all of those who have aparently never worked on a car that was produced in a factory, ALL MANUFACTURERS HAVE BEEN OVERLAPPING AND SPOT WELDING FOR OVER 70 YEARS. If you will read what I am saying instead of just ***uming you know all, you would have read that a properly finished repair will be done with -1 weld through primer, which, if you have ever used, is a zinc coating which if there is water contact will corrode before it eats the metal. -2 properly seam sealled from the backside to protect against moisture. 3- primed and painted to ***ured protection. And here's your reminder. Anyone who knows his way is the only way is not a customer I want!! Thanks but no thanks
I know what the right way is and if I was paying some one to do it it is certainly not going to be that way. You have now created a seam that has twice the thickness of metal as anywhere else in the panel and is going to expand and contract at a diferent rate than the rest of the panel which in turn will create and area that WILL become visable through the paint over time even if it doesn't rust out first. Back yard repair!!!
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