HOW TO JUDGE A WELD, One thousand words can tell you more than one picture.

I think this was my point, although I maybe didn't put it very well. There are a lot of guys on here that go gaga over nice TIG welded beads regardless of their application. I think Nash clears it up below. You can probably use any welder in any application, but there will always be one that is best for any given application.

Pete

 

what is going to be really interesting is what happens in 20 years when everyone is using laser-hydrogen Soybean welders talking about how archaic and brutish Tig and Mig were...and only guys like us will still be doing it.

I was looking at Shorpy.com the other day, and there are TONS of great photos of our Rosie the riveters and Wendy the Welders throwing airplanes and tanks together- and lots of oxyfuel was being done...one of my fav's is a gal oxy welding aluminum. it appears to be an airduct of some type, but The angle is perfect to see the inside and outside of the peice- outside, stack of dimes! inside-pure perfection .

it's inspiring for sure, as I walk back to the corner of the shop with the scratch start Tig machine in it. I WILL master this.

Or I will sell it and buy a bigger Mig.

 

Just because a welder is certified, doesnt mean his welds are automatically good. Many guys have a driver's license and are crappy drivers.
Each weld has to be taken on its own merit.
I wouldnt worry too much. Americans by far and large are the best welders in the world. If you dont believe me, take a look under that SR5 Toyota pickup frame... Tiny little Mig welds sometimes not even on the joint... many times I've built a hitch way stronger than the frames..I rest my case...Mikey

 

Ha ha. You're funny.

 

The first part is correct, but the analogy is not even close. I got my drivers license 14 years ago and haven't had to retest since. Many tickets and a restricted license later, and I've still never taking another road test.

In welding there are more certifications than you can count. For every process, joint, size, material, position, application, and so on and so forth. In my particular experience, the certs last two years max and are only good in the plant you are working in. If you don't constantly put into practice the type of weld you are certified in, it lasts 6 months. If at anytime in there is any reason to question your weld, you may be asked to go back and re-test.

I remember one guy coming up to me to chat about welding. He said he was a certified welder, so I asked him what kind of certs he had. "well, in welding" right.....

And using a robot welded jap frame as an example of american welding superiority...I hope that was a joke

 

I'm a farm kid from Illinois. I didn't take up welding 'til my senoir year. Dale Will was the instructor. To pass his class, you had to build a cube with gas welding, stick welding, and brazing. The cube was graded on squareness porosity. No MIG in 1984.
AC stick versus DC stick? Both work very well. I'll suggest for both to have a piece of sacrificial metal clamped close to the intended work area to get the stick to start and warm up. With E6011 and E6013, it ain't a bad thing if you weld as "good" with them as I do. Get the dadgum stick to strike and burn on the sacrificial scrap, pull off, start the intended weld while the rod core is still orange.
I never grabbed the E7014 rod to get the easy first weld like the city kids. I was bound and determined to get the first good stick weld with E6013 and E6011. The weld came with gettin' the dadgum stick to warm up first.
After that, Mr. Will pointed me to a MIller AC/DC welder, and suggested I learned to overhead weld (appearance, inspection) with E7018 rod using DC reverse polarity. It was a whole lot easier than flat welding with E6013.
Since then, I've burned in many spools of ER70S-6 and used up two very good Miller welders. I've had my ass handed to me for some driveshafts I've built that flat f**ked up because of my welding or assembly work.
I shortened and balanced one 1810 series shaft (big truck HEAVY STUFF) Tuesday morning, only had to take half the time requred, and rebult both double cardan CV joints for another s10 x-cab truck for fun on Wednessday. Back to answering phones on the war zone/parts counter.

 

<HR style="COLOR: #e5e5e5; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
Quote:
Originally Posted by striper I
...........................You can probably use any welder in any application, but there will always be one that is best for any given application.........................
Pete

Well said, striper, Even though I haven't seen it all, I have dabbled in most, (except the soybean/laser deal) that somebody meantioned, I agree..nash.


Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick2965 ..........................
I'm a farm kid from Illinois. I didn't take up welding 'til my senoir year. Dale Will was the instructor. To pass his class,.................................r.


Thanks, patrick2965. For others, even if you aren't a kid anymore, and you don't complete the course, as long as you get through the first few days of safety and setup........TAKE A CLASS. nash.
.
__________________

Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by patrick2965
to have a piece of sacrificial metal clamped close to the intended work area to get the stick to start and warm up. With E6011 and E6013, ............. Get the dadgum stick to strike and burn on the sacrificial scrap, pull off, start the intended weld while,,,,,,,,,,,,,, .
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Patric2965, you bring up a point. Mr. Young, my mentor, (my garsh, it was 50 years ago! showed me that, when I was having trouble with getting the arc struck. I guess I was too tentative, and I kept getting the thing stuck, but was jerking it away, to lose the arc. He took the stinger from me, saying something like this; "don't jab it into the plate, just touch it and then drag it over to the crack like you do your pecker! If it sticks, don't jerk it off!, just twist it sidewise to break it loose, then drag it into the joint".

The new floor on that fertelizer truck had a lot of those "pecker tracks", until I learned the technique!

,HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL.

 

Thanks for the helpful info!

 

I know one thing, I love welding, it is almost Zen.

 

When i started i would practice with a mig i bought and laid good looking welds. Just welding 1/8 plate at dif angles. They looked like a flat catepilar. So id put them in my vice and hit them with a hammer. if that held then it put them on the sidewalk and hit them with a 20 pound sledge. Once those held i knew they were strong. I still took a few samples for a pro to scan before i did a cycle frame or anything big.

 

This is a great thread, but I think a critical element is missing - as one of those who are "self-taught" I cant recommend enough getting out and actually practice welding. You can then find out first hand the difference between a good and bad weld. For example, using coat-hangers as filler rod - been there and done that and can tell you using commercial rod is *so* much better its obvious (if you are paying attention.) Likewise the need to get all the old brass off steel before welding. You dont and you will never get a good weld. Try it and you will see why. Finally, all the books or descriptions wont get you the right "frying bacon" sound that comes with a strong Mig weld. But if you Mig weld enough you will be able to tell quickly (and accurately) when the sound is wrong. There are so many more clues to actually putting down a good, strong weld while you are doing it. And it comes by doing it.

I realize this doesnt help much after the fact, but the confidence that you did it right before helps your confidence for future projects. I think 29Nash is being kind by not saying that years of actual welding experience is probably the best way to determine if a weld is ok (short of expensive or destructive tests)

best,
brg404

 

A friend of mine bought a 28 a with a hacked together tube steel chassis. The frame was stick welded together. He wasn't happy with it, so we decided to scrap the frame. We figured torch it up, but first lets beat the hell out of it with a sledge hammer. Needless to say, we didn't need the torch. We literally beat the welds apart on the frame with very little effort. The scariest part was the guy he bought this from said it had been on the road in the last few years! YIKES!

 

Yep, even if you aren't a kid anymore, can't hurt to ........TAKE A CLASS.

 

You had me at hello..
great read.

 

I didn't read every word of this thread, so if this has been covered already I apologize.

BUT, to say that you can't tell anything from a visual inspection simply isn't true. A visual inspection can show some tell-tale signs of a poor weld: undercut, rollover, porosity & excessive weld spatter to name afew.

That said, it is certainly what's under the surface that matters most. One can create a weld that is pretty but lacks penetration.

But we shouldn't forget that the same welder who did the surface also welded what's underneath it and his skills are likely to be evident in BOTH places.

 

I suggest before you comment to this thread, you read the entire thing!, this has to be the best hosted thread I have read here in some time!!

29Nash, and all of you that have added wonderful knowledge of this thread... This is a great lesson, as someone who is always looking to learn from those better than myself (there are many, many here and in this thread that fit that bill), I really apreciate the conversation!

 

excellent post nash. i couldnt agree with you more. i have always felt this way but was never able to put it into words.

 

It's so true you can hear it if it's going right.

 

I have always said "my welds might not be the miss america of welds, but just try to brake 'em." Function over form, and if they do come out pretty, well thats good too!

 

Thanks men. I appreciate your contributions. I'm starting to feel that articulating my premise has been a worthwhilel effort.
I was thinking the last few days that this thread had gone full circle, then I realized that there are probably many more that would like to read and digest this. I also realize that the primary audience would be those that have never welded, and the contributions by you guys that are experienced welders is what makes that possible. For me, it's a trip down memory lane. In a couple of months I'll be heading down to the "Old Pueblo" to converse and drink beer with Mr Burl Young.
Keep on keepin' on everybody.
29nash.

 

just glue it j/k

 

Well said brg404; Being, as you say, 'self taught', you remind me that no teacher is superior to On Job Training. we are all self taught on the developed skills of such. I can show and tell, then it's up to the student to get on with the learning on his own. All good students (of anything) will learn in spite of the teacher. We learn by doing.

For formal instruction, I suggest everyone attend a class, not to learn 'how' to weld, because we only learn tech applications by doing them, but to understand the theory and the safety/setup, etc, and a demonstration by a qualified welder on how it works. Your observation that only the person that did the weld knows what's underneath it virutally undisputed by experienced welders.

Coat hangars? I liked hay-wire for fixing cracked fenders, etc. better. Slightly smaller gauge, and longer chunks. Free. But now hay-wire is a thing of the past they use synthetic fiber/plastic cord! Oh wellll.........................

Seriously, nothing beats welding-wire formulated for the job.

 

I don't see any problem, with O/A welding, what matters is that you can weld, not have the latest TIG. And it is a traditional board, so I guess all cars on here should only be O/A welded.
wil
www.sakowskimotors.com

 

29 Nash
Great thread.
Wil

 

29Nash,I haven't been welding as long as you (40 years) but I do know that when i was reading through posts here on the HAMB ( before I bothered to sign on)and various cheer squads were praising up pictures of welds I often had to ask myself... "what on earth are these guys saying,those aren't good welds..."
I had reasoable Mig machine about 15 years ago and neighbour who was a retired BOC representitive and the best welder I have yet to see,needed a mig to fix some rusty cars he had. I wasn't using it much so he asked if I wanted to swap for his Tig,which was a monster and probably belonged in museum. It looked like a 1920's main switch room from a big building with brass dials and things. I said no,It was too big and i didn't have 3 ph so he offered his buzzbox,as a joke ,but I said OK,and today I still it and folks still ask if I use Tig or Mig.

I was taught several things which are considered basic welding proceedure. You have mentioned cleanliness,penetration and the correct beveling of plate etc ( i used bevelling machines as an Apprentice welding boiler vessels etc ) but no one has mentioned that those "stack of dime " welds are all stress risers in a row . Each sharp little edge is a crack waiting to happen .Each one signifys a cold spot in the weld.
Aircraft work demands a lot higher quality than that and that is where the weld inspector starts looking before the ultrasound comes out .and thewere is nothing worse than a part failing because of an xray showing a line in a job which hasn't been joined properly.
Another deadlly sin I see is weld undercutting ,again those sharp edges are just the place where cracks develop.
A good stick weld should smooth with slight lines where you have fed the electrode with the bead a slight convex shape and the edges flush with surface not below It. Grinding isn't necessary with a good weld and often ground welds are fails and get rejected by testing authorities.
From the very beginiing when i first started with a stick welder,I was told my beads were good when the flux cracked and fell off by itself. It meant temp,cleanlines and penetration were close to the mark.
I relalise that some electrodes give different results but in general the 6012's etc should do this everytime. a quick swipe the chipping hammer and the slag comes away in 1-1 1/2" chunks.
I have never had a weld break or leak or in service in all these years because i followed rules laid down in the early days of electric welding which still hold true today.
That includes down hand,overhead and vertical welding .
I gas weld a lot too,I have worn out the tips in my henrob torch and countless tips in the old set ups.
Again people express surprise when I weld steel oil line fittings or some such together without brazing or silver soldering. Anything can be joined ,it's a matt er of application .

 

Dirtynails. Thanks for sharing, your comments obviously based on experience. I'm certain, just from your description, that I wouldn't stand a chance in a welding skills faceoff where you were a participant. When a pro like you picks up a stinger, it's fun to watch.

My hand isn't steady any more. When I have something critical I take it down to Johnny's boiler shop and let the kids weld it.

Grind a weld? Not! (at best, notch it out with a whiz-wheel and re-do)

As you point out, Dirtynails; There's few things more beautiful than to watch the flux curl up and fall off with nothing more than a gentle tap.

I really don't see any type of welding as not traditional. Only O/A? Never heard that one.
That would be going overboard I think. But of course we hear 'overboard' comments here on the 'board' (pun) all the time, don't we?
As I've stated before, my forte over the years has been O/A, but I've succumed to the utility of wire-feed for brackets and sheet metal on my Hot Rod. If entering a contest, I would choose O/A, with my eyesight diminishing, the puddle is more vivid. That said, on a hot day, I prefer MIG.

 

I don't want to start a big argument again, and most of what Dirtynails said is right on. But as far as the "stack of dimes" look being weak, it's not necessarily true. The "lines" you see are "freeze" lines, but that doesn't mean they are "cold" spots. I know that doesn't sound right. When you're welding, the puddle is gonna freeze at some point, does that mean it isn't fused? No. Those lines are where the puddle "froze" at. In some cases, especially with mig welding starts and stops, it could be a cold spot. That's where a break test, or an x-ray or better yet an ultra sound test comes in handy.

Look at any cover pass on a pipe weld from water pipes in a school to pipes in a nuclear facility. You will see lines, whether it's stick, mig, or tig welded. I've done a lot of destructive testing where the face of those welds gets bent backwards into a "u" shape, and the weld doesn't split. Actually, one of the reasons ultra sound testing is used above x-ray testing is because sometimes an x-ray will pick up a line like that when in reality it's fused fine. An ultra sound will find any spot where it isn't fused, regardless of what it may look like.

Now if the welder isn't very skilled and the lines aren't flat, then yeah, it'll become a stress raiser. But just because it has a "stacked dime" look doesn't make it weak.

Something like this just isn't going to break, I've done many destructive tests on similar pieces and the face of the weld will not split where the freeze lines are:

 

Why purposely create a stress riser?
Edit; Of course it's ok on a work of art, with an ornamental application, but not on a structural weld,Edit.
Strength is redundant if a stress riser leads to a crack, which is likely in a structural weld.

 

Excellent read !

 

They aren't stress risers if the welder is skilled and the weld is nearly flush. Just because you see that freeze line doesn't mean it's a weak point. In some applications it's flat out unavoidable. If you've got big ripples and ridges, especially if they aren't smooth, then there is a potential problem.