Pontiac an Orphan

...it already has...

 

Thank you....my thoughts exactly.

 

i haven't heard anything about Buick they are a big seller in China, last thing i heard the buick name plate would still be around because of this.

 

1) American cars lack of quality has driven them to the ground.

2) American CEO's get huge bonuses for fucking businesses up. And then after that we give them "retension bonuses". haha Nothing like paying a fuck up so you can retain him/her.

3) Don't blame the consumer. I own a Saab. Know why? Because it's a better car than any american car is in that price range and class. So are most imports though. Sorry, but it's true. Safer, less recalls, better value retaining, etc.

4) American auto manufacturer employees should quit bitching. You have the plushest most unjustifiably financially rewarding jobs in the world.

 

Before the door gets slammed shut on this thread, I'd like to post my thoughts. A buddy of mine and I were discussing this very subject at work the other day, and here's how I see it. First off, there are simply too damn many redundant cars in all automakers lineups. GMC and Chevy trucks are a great example. Aside from the grilles and a few badges, they are identical. Why? That's one GM company competing against another, and at what end? Make one and be done with it. Why does Dodge have so many different four door sedans? You have the Charger and the 300 competeing against each other. Why not offer one or the other with enough options to please those who want comfort and those who want a more performance car? Why aren't cars based from similar platforms more often? As an example, in 1957, Chevy had all their cars, plus the sedan delivery based on similar (sometimes identical) chassis. Same rear axles, same A-arms, same engine options, same steering and brakes, same dashes, same front end sheetmetal, the list was endless. This made for affordable cars, simpler engineering and a more identifiable car. Of course, todays cars are often so ugly, you'd wind up with seven versions of a turd, but if the desingers got it right, it could appeal to a huge bunch of buyers. Another of my pet peeves is one that drives cars right through the friggin' roof (as well as out of the range of buyers) is all the absolutely pointless options. Do you really NEED heated mirrors? Heated seats? Four-wheel steering in your pickup? Variable-rate steering ratios in your SUV? Here's a tip for GM: try making a transmission that lasts more than a couple years, that might sell a truck or two. All those goofy electronic gizmos are great for impressing your neighbor on the first day of ownership, but they're a heck of lot less impressive on that 10th year of the vehicle's life when you're looking at a $2000 repair bill for some computer-controlled shit on a $5500 vehicle that stickered new for $40,000.
What about style? I will be the very first person to admit that the late model GTO was an awesome-performing car. It was a factory hot rod in the sense that it had a killer motor in a small car, plus it handled very well. But guess what? It was boring to look at. I remember when they came out, some gold-chainer entered one in the local one-day car show and I knew it was doomed as a car right then and there. Here was the pinnacle of GM performance, and not one person even noticed it. I don't know about you, but at my house, I have to love looking at a car as well as love driving it. Look at the huge number of PT Cruisers on today's roads. High-tech? Not hardly. Fast or good handling? Uhh..no. But they are kinda neat to look at, cheap and comfy. I rented an '07 Convertible PT cruiser a few years ago and loved it. It had nice styling, sorta looked like it had a chopped top and was not too shabby to drive. Evidently I'm not the only one who liked them since everyone and his brother-in-law has one. You could also buy three of them for what a GTO cost new. Look at any dealer's lot in about 1988 and you can see why they are in the shape they are today. People need to be excited about a car to part with the money. What's getting attention in today's showroom? New cars built to look like old cars. Ford's selling the crap out of Mustangs, Dodge's Challenger is a great-looking car as well, but a bit expensive, and although they are waaaaay out of my league, Ford's GT is another car that got a good vibe among the press. That tells me that maybe the styling from the '60's was right-on and they should have left well enough alone rather than some of the shitbox, disposable cars they've all been hawking since then. See any Beretta collectors out there? How about Mercury Merkur enthusiasts? Haven't seen a K-car club either. Yet all the current guys are jumping on the new big thing with "green" cars aren't they?Maybe, just maybe all the automakers need to produce less models, quit jumping on every damn fad that comes down the pike and build stylish, affordable, reliable cars again. Stick to the basics and people will buy it...

 

First of all before we bash pensions let's realize they were negotiated at a time when GM was grossly profitable. A pension or health insurance for that matter should be thought of as a defered payment of wage. These retirees gave their blood sweat tears and for the most part sacrificed their bodies and health for the wage that they earned, GM thought it more cost effective to give people pensions than pay more hourly. It was a negotiation and now that GM has buyers remorse if they are allowed to renegotiate pensions. I want to renegotiate the lean on my car now that we're near pay off.

The uaw built the American middle class. And the American dream for that matter. Even if you are not a union man, for every union job with benifits and pensions 2 more non union jobs have to pay similar wages to maintain competitive labor pool in the work place.

the transplants are not comming up smelling like roses many of them have utilized government subsidys from both federal and state governments. While the majority of their foreign workforce has some form of national health care. Meanwhile the big 3 get the shaft for being in the nation with the most expensive inefficient health care system.

GM's problem is not the designs or the workforce it has been piss poor management, a bush economy and skyrocked fuel costs and not even Toyota or Honda has made it out unscathed.

For the matter of the facts. None of the big three have asked for a "bail out" as the banking industry did. They requested loans, to be paid back with interst. Fact of the matter is that the bankers are not loaning to anyone. (including GM) dispite trillions of dollars being infused to the banks by the feds. GM couldn't get a loan from the banks so they went to the feds, its that simple.

 

The best part is the blame placed on the current regime in Washington for the GM troubles. The last regime was good for GM and 100 days later it goes bankrupt? Don't think so. Roger Smith and the one style fits all brands was the beginning of the end for GM. I feel bad for the families that will lose jobs from the collapse caused by the over paid mis-management.

 

Dude.
That's just not even close to right lol.
If I want something like that i'll buy a golf cart, it's just as safe!

 

Hahaaha, not even the Japanese like Mitsubishi's! Seriously they are the dog car over here and there was a huge safety recall they tried to ignore and really pissed a lot of people off. Suzuki cars are more popular!

Toyota is also struggling, this is not just an American thing. They make these cars here in Nagoya and I work near the port and all the back lots are full of cars waiting to be shipped. They have so much inventory they don't know what to do with it all. And they started laying people off...which is pretty much unheard of in Japan. Employee for life...not anymore!

 

Imports have less recalls I call bull shit on that Toyota has had more reacalls than they have sold cars. And They also have problems on the frames on there trucks rusting out. I think I will be sticking with my 11 year old Chevy truck with 183,000 mile and still going strong.

 

In my opinion instead of giving all that money to GM and Chrysler what they should have done is give it to the people in the form of rebates. If you buy a new BIG 3 AMERICAN, not a japanese car made in America, you get a $8,000-$10,000 government rebate check. This would entice people to buy more cars which inturns makes the companies money. If a person was looking at a new car for example and lets say a Toyota Camry and a Chevrolet Impala and they both were $30,000. If you could get a $10,000 government rebate on that Impala and it only cost you $20,000 I think that probably made the decision for you on which car you will buy.
Yet we have given them all this money and no one is buying their cars and they can't make money unless someone buys their cars. Why didnt we encourage people to buy their cars so they can make money to restructure themselves on their own profits. The government wants a stimulus to boost the economy. Local governments are running out of money to fund schools and the like. Everytime someone buys a car thats alot of sales tax and wheel tax going into that local economy. Yet we have given GM and Chrysler all of our money and we haven't seen any benifit from it. I mean 13.5 billion dollars will make a lot of $10,000 rebate checks.

 

Thats the brightest Idea have heard on this thread. But the government would much rather give the money to AIG so they can give there workers raises and bonuses.

 

On the last one , If you'd like to come to my plant and work for a few weeks you'd be singing a different tune !! I'd be willing to bet you have never seen the inside of a final assembly plant.

 

That's what another freind of mine says. He says that what the government should have done is give every taxpayer a $20,000 check, but it could only be used to buy a new, American-made car. Then the taxpayer would feel like he got something for his money, the automakers would be flush with money from the sales, as would the parts suppliers. Sounds like a fail-proof plan to me...

 

Yeah, I get a laugh everytime someone bitches about how great a job is when they don't have a freakin' clue what it takes to do that job...sheesh

 

Americans don't need $20,000 to buy a car, they it to save their homes...

 

I see electro's point. But some people deserve loosing their house. Its mean to say it but its true. My dad has been wondering for the past 10 yrs how these people are building these $500,000 dollar houses, driving 2 $50,000 cars, the wife not working, and having 3 kids. When this person can't make his payments he brought it on himself. But, there are people out there who havent done this and have lived within their means and are loosing homes, those are the people who need help.

 

Oh and if I recall Saab is owned by GM Thanks for your purchase!!

 

I would like to see them work in the dealership in the service department and have to fix other peoples fuck ups.

 

first of all "Stupidist" isn't a word...

Yes I am saying toyota doesn't have any good looking or exciting cars. My opinion, but damn they don't even have the supra or celica anymore. Not that I liked them, but come on it is like the line-up of bland. Are you really trying to tell me the camry is "Cool"?

Your "facts" are irrelevant.
#1 ugly is subjective. Not a fact. you don't like american design, I don't like toyota's design.. personal opinions.
#2 http://money.cnn.com/2006/01/23/Autos/american_cars/index.htm Do some research, before you open your mouth. Look I see 3 american makes before Toyota Brand. And this is why it IS partially the fault of consumers. People will believe anything they hear, but won't actually look at the facts sometimes.

#3 I won't argue, because I don't know much about it and the things I have heard sure wouldn't help a company.

 

I lost my health, now I may lose my home, and I did the best I could. I'm not cryin', I'm just saying that I've listened to a lot of shit talk where everyone assumes that people are having bad stuff happen to them, and it's their faults. Sometimes maybe yes, but sometimes maybe not. Better for us not to judge others on what they have done or why, so that we don't have to answer for it later...

That said, it is hard to find sympathy for the McMansion owners with the twin beemers... about as hard a time as I had finding sympathy for Kenneth Lay's wife when they lost their mansion in Tahoe, and would have to vacation in the south of France...

 

I got something else too. What was up with the congressmen that said let GM and Chrysler go under?? Are they freaking nuts? The economy is the worst most of us have and hopefully will ever see in our lives and they want to put around 3 million more people out of work. They saved AIG because they have insured so much crap they can't fail. Well if no one has a job, AIG wont matter anymore because nobody will have anything to insure because no one will have any money to buy anything. I just graduated from college with an Industrial Engineering degree. I sure would help if some of these supplier plants would stay open so I might acutually get a job because it sure as hell hasnt happened yet. Someone should tell the governemt everyone cant work at Wal Mart. Thats my rant and Im stickin to it.

 

Well, you see these people on the news and the stuff they did with their money is just ridiculous. They weren't saving anything and buying like there was no tomorrow. Some people you see you just don't feel any remorse for because they made their own bed with their spending habits and they put themselves in this position.

 

The problem is that the money is not being "given" to anyone its a loan. The American people would not be willing to pay back a 10,000 tax rebate. The big 3 will pay back their loans.

Also the same "free market" crowd in the senate would never pass such legislation. That is after all socialism.

 

As an old timer (retired) I think the blame has to go around the block, can't pinpoint one sector and blame it exclusively. A lot of GM problems were brought out by the unions, the managers were to blame just as well, and also the bottom line was that the almighty stockholder is just as guilty " I invested XXX amount, Where is my profit??" All company's made a lot of lemons but they also quit making good cars in general. In, '55 I think, they came out with planned obsolesence mentality, in other words " It'll last a few years and after that the consumer will buy a new one", that goes also for appliances and other hard items The whole mentality is that the only way to suceed is to make a product last as long as the warrenty and then mysteriously will break and force the consumer to buy a new, whatever. I just bought a 52 Stude, right now I marvel at the the way these battle tanks were made. tons of chrome, solid steel, slam the door and you'd undertand. I'm glad that I lived my life in the '50, 60's and '70's This throw away society sure is'nt for me. PS I've owned 4 Indians sorry to see them go....

 

someone earlier in this thread said something about the Avalanche, and I drove one from OKC to JAX Florida and back a few years ago. Hands down the best, most capable, most comfortable, well thought out vehicle I've ever driven. I've wanted to buy one ever since, but cannot afford it.

My wife has a Buick Regal Coupe, and while the drive train is capable, even fun, (3800) and the ride comfortable and smooth, the fit and finish, the interior rattles, the door panels weak, the console cover busting, the overall plasticness of it, just makes me hate driving it.

Just chiming in on my observations.


OH>> one of the guys at work bought a GTO a few weeks ago, and as rad as it may be on the stats side of things, it is as plain as vanilla looks wise. Its like poncho had the peanut butter but no jelly; kool aid but no sugar,....you get me?

 

Work as a tech for a couple of import companies and work on the cars based on those recalls, and then tell me who has more.

And I didn't even delve into the fact that from my own personal experience they have less SAFETY recalls.

As for toyotas, guess what kiddo, there's more imports than toyotas out there.

Congrats on your 183K mile wonder chevy.

FWIW: I've owned over 5 imports from the european nations that had well over 183K when I bought them (One was over 275K) and they all ran just like new and needed no maintenance that was based on poor quality. Just typical oil changes, coolant flushes, etc.

 

AIG insurance isn't or wasn't the problem..it was AIG Financial. AIG was "rebranding" (er changing the insurance sections name) to 21st Century.
21st Century was completing the change but this Firday..21st Century was bought by Farmers Insurance..which was "rebranding" some of their products to Foremost (who they bought a few years ago)
Farmers is now owned by Zurich..in Europe..

AIG insurance was profitable..AIG Financial was a disaster..

The goverment bailed out AIG..as it invested in sub-par home loans..risky soft paper credit..and high interest consumer and commercial loans. AIG..like Morgan Stanley etc..had tenacles (testicles!) strung out throughout the world..
All of this is quite more involved than most understand..and wether or not or why exactly they were bailed out is difficult to fathom.

The banking industry makes no product..GM..Chyrsler..Ford..make a physical produce.

They also make or designed much of our military and some ocean going (for example..GM Defense..sold to General Dynamics 2004)) hardware.
General Dynamics and GM are intertwined with cross over engineers..as the tranfer is 5 years.
Whoever owns these companies..owns the technology ..owns the hardware we use to defend ourselves...employes the talent..knows the limitations the strategies employed by military design requirements.
Do we really want to order military hardware from companies owned by a foreign entity ?
In bankruptcy the saviour with the $$..owns the company.
The "surgical bankruptcy"..I believe..would be to shield this section of the auto industry..
Much is intertwined though..many of the engineers at the miltary sections..work or worked at civilian sections..and the reverse.

I want GM..Ford..Chrysler here. No auto company in the entire WORLD is doing well. Other countries are pouring money into their industries..
Yet we discuss letting ours fail..and turning the keys over to those other countries..IF they find value in what we have..

We spend more in Iraq every few months than we would lend our #1 industry for years. Do we really think a rebuilt Iraq is more valuable..more in our security interests than a strong..rebuilt auto industry..?
When we leave Iraq..and that nation seeks it's own destiny..do we want to have traded our #1 industry..our past military designs and specs..for whatever the hell Iraq becomes.?

I have managed auto dealerships of most foreign and domestic companies..there is no magic tin. There is perception..there is a modern reality.

You choose..

 

Do I have to win a spelling bee to post something on the HAMB?

The best indicator of future quality is past quality. Lets put this in plain easy to understand terms: American consumers bought the shit these companies produced, got sick of their poor quality, and looked elsewhere.

Many of us who got burnt would again buy their shit if it was good looking shit, but they can't even do that right!

Now those of us who won't buy their shit are bailing their asses out, thanks to our lame ass government.

And for the guy that says the money GM and Chrysler is getting from the hard working Americans is a loan, and they will pay it back.... if you actually believe that then I have some ocean front property here in Colorado.....