Pontiac an Orphan

my $.02, Pontiacs saving grace was to be the new GTO, BUT, Bob Lutz wanted the GTO to be a BMW killer, not a Mustang killer.......look at a Beemer and a GTO, same basic design of the body, grilles, taillights, even the wheels! Set in one or drive one, its the most refined GTO ever produced, seats are comfortable for the track or a trip, and power on demand, and there consistant at the track.
PROBLEM 1:the GTO buyer they targeted wasnt the GTO Buyer they should have, anyone who owned a GTO in the past was praying for a throw back retro design(like Mustang), not a BMW. And where was it built??? Australia, should have been built here!
PROBLEM 2:the bread n butter cars, Firebird and Camaro, were over priced compared to the mustang, TOO MANY standard features pushed the car $10k above the new stang(I know I sold Pontiacs 99-01). And why were they axed, because they lost a lease on thier plant in CANADA. It should have been here in the first place!
PROBLEM 3:The economy and the government.....yes the economy came to a screeching hault with gas @ $4 per gallon. The government was no help either, first Pres Clinton made it easy for buissness to OUTSOURCE, causing alot less to be built here....yep the Companies made record profits for share holders, but it took Zilions of dollars out of this country and spread the wealth amoung other countries where their are no Labor restrictions and ofcourse that means a lower over head....THEN bailout after bailout.....they put the $$$ in the hands of buissnesses, not the people the buissnesses depended upon to buy thier product.... Credit is all I heard from our new Pres, "we need to make sure people have credit"...NO Im sorry Mr Pres, we need to make sure these people have $$$$$, the bailouts should have went to the people paying taxes, so they could cope with higher gas prices and declining housing market, and lay offs and shop closures. CREDIT is what got this countries pantys in a knot.

I say let those fail that made bad decisions: BANKS, INSURANCE Co., Mortgage Co., and Yes even Car companies(oh and I work for FORD).

Let the strong survive! Its what built this country.

If I make a bad decision, I learn from it, I dont get a HANDOUT from anyone, and you can bet your A$$ it wont happen again.

and in closing, I can admit Im part of the problem....but its because I choose to be, I dont buy new cars, I dont like loosing $$$$, I buy old cars, until I sold my Star Chief, I drove it everyday, and I LOVED IT! The thumbs up, the comments I got from everyone were always Positive.....can you cay that in your new (Insert brand make and model here) when you are out and about????
The newest car in my Stable is my Wifes 04 Mustang(which we bought used), I also have a pair of 99 Taurus?Sables, and my trailer totting 94 Suburban....but what I like to drive most is my 74 GTO, and soon my 47 Dodge and 66 droptop Skylark!

I dont drive the old stuff because its all I can afford, like people on this board, I DRIVE IT BECAUSE I WANT TOO!!!!!

Rant over!

 

Thats just wrong on so many levels................lol

 

wasn't the aztec supposed to have been a joke from pissed off pontiac designers? I know the concept sure didn't look like that, i always heard upper management actually liked the joke and decided to make it,figures. if the companies want them to succeed,put more car guys at lower levels in charge of the final decisions, by the time it hits the coporate office most of the good designs have been bastardized into something unrecognizable

 

Just a relevant question.... why is it that everytime this conversation comes up, the american car lovers act like Toyota is the only god damn import there is? lol

Seriously.

Everything that people use as reasons they hate imports they refer to toyotas.... which is ironic because toyotas sell better, need less maintenance, and are actually quite well made.

I don't own one, but my girl does, and she loves it.






So here's a FACT: You guys can bitch about imports all you want, but the statistics show that they have been superior, and that people know it, for awhile now.

Note: I would be all about buying an american car if it weren't a piece of shit. Too bad america hasn't made a good car for a LOOOOOOOOONG time.

 

I could go on and on about this too but what I'd say, for the most part, has already been said. The only thing I'll contribute is that I've owned 7 Pontiac's (have one right now), a bunch of Fords and a few imports. The best car I've ever had was a 1986 Buick Park Avenue. Right there with it is my present Lincoln Navigator (don't let the politicians know I've got a big gas guzzlin' SUV). I have a 17 year old Ford F-250 that I haven't spent shit on in all those years. So I'm not into this shit that US can't build quality cars. They can and I've owned them and still do. I'll assure y'all of one thing, no good will come of the government running anything ... even the government!

 

I am suuprised how many people on this board are die hard "traditional" hot rodders and then apparently by day putt around in their toyota.

Yeah there are more import companies, but toyota is the biggest and taking the largest share of sales of any import.

Toyota and honda have decent reliability reputations, but look at other imports. Mistubishi is horrible. VW, Mercedes both have problems. BMW too. So not everything "imported" is good. And not everything built here is bad.

My grandmother's '92 caprice, is still going with a very poor maintenance history, My mom's old '85 cavalier has 275k on it and my uncle is still driving it. Our '04 chevy pickup runs like it is new with 130k on it. I routinely see dodge cummins pickups with 300k on them for sale.

But I give up. People are too stubborn to look for facts when they already "know" all the answers.

 

The only badge or brand that commands respect and loyalty in Detroit is this one: $

 

Although this started as a Lament to the possible passing of P.M.D., since it turned into American Auto bashing, I will give you my real life experience with American cars. I got my first car in 1971 and have had quite a few cars & trucks since. This is a list of facts, not conjecture or rumor heard from others - first hand experience.
First two cars were a couple of British Sportscars built rebuilt from wrecks so I won't comment on those. In 1973 I bought my mom's 71 Pinto that she got new. She hadn't had any problems and over the next few years I beat on it after adding Hooker Headers, Erson Cam Holley carb and had NO failures or problems of any kind. The next fews were Datsun, Courier and LUV trucks (There were no American small trucks at that time) along with a Sunbeam Tiger. They don't really have any relevance here. Mom replaced the Pinto with a New Dodge Dart - No problems, other than a complete lack of soul. Dad drove a Volvo Wagon and it had an A/C compressor failure and a broken alternator bracket in the first year. In the 80's;
1984 Toyota truck - tons of small problems kept it in the shop
1983 Mustang GT - leaky T Tops were the ONLY problem
1984 Chevy Van, towed the race car, at 275,000 miles it lost oil pressure and we were 3000 miles from home so the PA. dealer put a target master 350 in it.
1986 Ford F250 - No problems ever
1986 F350 Dually - only problem was a blown by pass hose after putting an Edelbrock manifold on it and cooked the motor, at 150,000 miles and certainly not Ford's fault
1986 F 150 - 200,000 miles with no problems, just normal maintenance.
1987 Escort GT, only had a year but no problem
1991 Thunderbird - no problems at all
1992 Ford E250 van -no breakdowns including many trips to Mexico hauling the Ranger Race Truck
1997 Mustang GT - I blew second gear out of the T5 and they replaced it but really was my fault (a missed downshift going into a corner)
Numerous Ford Rangers (4 different ones) with one transmission failure at 100,000 miles.
2001 PT Cruiser - Hurt second gear in that one also. (Dealers did suck though)
2001 F150 Crew Cab - Had a mysterious coolant leak that couldn't be solved so Ford bought it back at their own suggestion, replaced with a 2004 F150 Super Crew that had no problems, replaced with a 2009 Expedition, so far no problems
During that same time I cared for some of my folks cars - Dad's Honda Civic hatch back ate exhaust systems every 18 months! Mom's Aerostar's only problem in 10 years was a broken motor mount and bent strut when she bounced it over a curb at about 45. Her Focus wagon no problems.

So my point here is for all you that bash American cars as being crap, I guess over the last 38 years I must be the luckiest guy on earth, or wait, maybe people like to talk shit when they don't have a clue!

 

I worked at VW, and most of the work we did on the cars was preventative and upkeep maintenance, so I can say for a fact that that claim isn't necessarily true.

BMW and Mercedes? AHAHA If you think those cars have issues you should probably own or drive one sometime. BMW and Mercedes don't get the price they do because they have issues.. they get the price because they are meticulously designed cars. I'd love to see some facts to back this claim up too BTW. Show me somewhere that I can find recalls for safety or mechanical that shows BMW and Merc have higher than average recalls. (Hint: You wont find it.)

No one said every import is better than american domestics.... but the fact that they outsell means that more people would say that's true. Hows that for a fact?







And all you guys complaining about "american auto bashing", grow up. No one is bashing. The sales figures and facts speak for themselves, and that's all people are pointing out.

Answer one simple question if you disagree:

If american cars ARE superior, why aren't more americans buying them? Hmm.....

 

MPLS,

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with your statement about MB and BMW. Having owned 1 import in my life a 2004 MB E Class, this was the worst car I have ever owned. I paid a premium for this car. I was very disappointed in the fit and finish, performance and everything that is computer controlled.

Also, having owned one I received a recall from MB. They were recalling all of their cars produced from the early 90's on to present day due to inferior quality. They realized that they were losing customers because of unreliable cars. When you pay that much you should get what you pay for.

The topic of imports is a very sore subject with me. American cars have been lacking luster for many years in my eyes. The reason is because they have lost a bunch of customers to import companies. They have to respond with vehicles that look similar to compete with the imports which have no character whatsoever.

Personally, I have no interest in new vehicles, especially Pontiac. It is sad that they have been gobbled up but when what you produce is not selling you have not done your homework and you deserve to fail.


I truly feel that this is way OT. Pontiacs and all other manufacturers of present day have nothing to do with the HAMB.





BloodyKnuckles

 

What were the problems? Were you the original purcaser/ first owner? What kind of maintenance was done to the car?

I only ask because from my experience, MOST issues with European cars have always been the owners issues with lack of proper maintenance, or no maintenance at all. ESPECIALLY second owners.

As for MB's recall on all cars, I don't think that's really true. I find it hard to believe a company that sells cars up to that price range recalled ALL of their last 20 years worth of production because of "poor quality"..... is this "general recall" something I could see on the net? Cause that's hilarious.

 

You might want to do some research before spouting off !!! 2009 j.d.power V.D.S. vehicle dependability study shows problems per 100 vehicles sold , with the industry standard being 170.Your wonderful VW is one of the worst at 260 problems,saab at 226 mercedes is below ar 184, bmw just above at 166.Oh and again at the very rop is BUICK an AMERICAN CAR COMPANY at only 122 beating out JAG LEXUS TOYOTA and oh wait another AMERICAN company MERCURY!!!!!! TRY USING THE INTERNET TO GER FACTS IT"S A HANDY TOOL!!!

 

We were the original owners. It was properly maintained.

The recall is absolutely true. You can find it online. We received a recall in the mail and was told that they would contact us and schedule an appointment to go over the entire car. In our 3 years of ownership we were never contacted. Also, I am on the HAMB for a reason, I love cars. So when I purchased the MB I found a website that catered to my vehicle and what made me sick was the amount of disappointed owners. The complaints were the same across the board.

If you do a bit of research I'm sure you'll be surprised and embarrassed.




BloodyKnuckles

 

1) I said that from my experience, not the experience of a privately owned company research project.

(Note: The fact that you take this so personally and feel the need to exaggerate what I said cracks me up. I merely stated that i worked at VW, and never saw anything that gave me the impression that american cars were better than what I worked on day in and day out.)

2) I didn't say anything about "wonderful VW". I don't even own a VW. lol I just worked there. I own a Saabaru, and frankly, it's been a great car for me. Put 45K Miles on it last year.

 

So let me get this straight, you bought a car that you personally claim to have had issues with even though you claim you know about cars, and you apparently bought without doing whatever research beforehand....

and I'm supposed to be embarassed? lol

Hardly.

Like I said, based on my own personal experience, the european cars I have worked on never had a whole ton of problems. I don't buy into these net statistics because all these companies that do them are in bed with this company or that.

What I do know is the work I've done on cars myself for a living and for a hobby. And that's what I base my info on.

 

New GTO, New Mustang, New Camaro, New Challenger.....none of it does a thing for me. The newest car I own is a '72 Pontiac LeMans and makes less pollution that any of these new cars. I think detroit got screwed over by the EPA in a huge way starting in 1968 and has finally come around to understanding how to make horses with economy and (supposedly) less pollution. My gut tells me that the big three spent too many clams on unecessary BS. Instead of trying to use a "platform" that can be used around the world, stick to what you know and build for the country the car is being sold in.

 

Could I see this pic with wide reds instead of whites, I might go out and buy one.

 

Agreed. No point in trying to build for the world, cause everyone wants different things.

As for the new Challenger, I gotta admit, I like the look personally. I think it's a clean looking design.

 

You know what's funny about your statement? In that price range, the majority buys on brand recognition. Period.

As for me knowing about cars, I refuse to get into a shit throwing discussion. That's silly.

I know you probably won't do the proper research and that's fine but until you know your facts maybe it's best to keep silent.





BloodyKnuckles

 

You might want to go over what you have previously said so you don't end up looking stupid.Anyway enough with the pissing match I need to go work on my American made model a, just saying the reason people bash American cars is not always true it's called' perceived quality" and alot of times they don't really KNOW the truth.Do some research before believing everything you hear.

 

Like I said kiddo, I base my opinions on my own experience. Your imterpretation of what I base them on is not important to me because frankly, I don't know you, so I don't give a rats ass how you think I get my information.

Good luck with the model A. Picked up a 5 window 32 poncho recently that I'll be working on.

 

OK OLD BASTARD, get to work!

 

Do I really need to explain my stance on the information you get from your "research" again? Here's what research has taught me: a lot of people who bitch about their cars don't actually know anything about cars, and wouldn't know their asshole from their elbow, so when someone complains about their car on the internet, I write it off until they can explain technically what the issue is.

So, instead, I go by experience. And as an EXPERIENCED person who has worked on a lot of the Euro cars, I've PERSONALLY never seen a problem that came up that made me think "Man, this is worse than every other car I've ever worked on".

And I didn't say you don't know about cars pal. I said you claim to know a lot about cars, and then you bought a car that you claim your research showed is supposedly plagued with problems... which means you didn't research before you bought the car. Why that would embarass me, I have no idea.

And don't tell me to keep silent. You're not my mother.

 

I'm really sad to hear my favorite GM brand going down. Up here in Canada Pontiac was a huge seller in the 60's even outselling Chev. I've had lots of them and still own 3 Trans Ams. But right now I don't see anything on the Pontiac lot that turns my crank. G5, G6, G8,Vibe? No Thanks.

 

I'd be pumped about the 32! We should all get out there and work on our shit!! I'm not one to argue. Especially about this crap.

Truce MPLS??


BTW...you type faster than me and I won't reply to what you have said. Have a great day.



BloodyKnuckles

 

haha

 

Wasn't aware our friendly debate needed a truce.

I don't get too riffed up about disagreement. Agree to disagree is fine with me.

 

U.S. cars died 35 + years ago.
Like a rotting corpse that's stinky and bloated, Pontiac along with the rest, shoulda been buried long ago.

 

I have to disagree on the imports a lot of OLDER imports did have character, the new ones are all crap as far as i'm concerned. they make be reliable but they are as boring as you can get. No one was forced to buy them,they bought them because we were producing some real crap for a while there. yea we've fixed it, but why is it with all the technology we have in this country,they couldn't have done that 20 years ago? if they had built cars to the qualiy standards of a lot of the older imports, these companies wouldn't be in this situation. People here made the choice of what to buy, it was their decision, if we had had the product up to the standards people expected they would have bought cars from here. Like i said before,if someone made a fun to drive basic american car,that was reasonable priced, and it actually looked like a car, and had some character,i would be in line to buy it . made here,not made from imported parts and assembled here. I hate this dam POS civic, but it was cheap to buy it used and it doesn't break down. I don't want twenty cup holders and freaking fold down dvd players in a new car, i want a basic american car that i can enjoy driving. If they make it i'll buy it, i've looked and i haven't been happy so far with what i've seen at the dealers.

 

they should have marketed the pontiac vibe to lesbians, lol ,Ok i had to say it. what is up with the idiotic names they come up with anyway? not one maker,but they all seem to do it now.