The problem was that the editorial staffs worked their asses off and got paid peanuts, still do. It was the sales team and management that made any kind of money there. The white collar crew did not care about the readership, they cared only about the advertising dollars. Meanwhile the overworked editors and their staff are caught between a rock and a hard place. More than once I was ordered to send parts back to a company "because they do not spend money on ads". The stuff was great, but they did not have their hands in the till. I remember about 5-years ago during a meeting I suggested we step up our web presence by adding more online stuff, video clips etc. I got laughed at. I was told "We've tried that and nobody cares". Then just a few months ago they started a company wide policy stating that all editors must blog every single day. Suddenly they discovered that the web exists, but it was too late at that point. Many big name advertisers already jumped ship. The truth as I see it is in these times, web cant exist with out print and print cant exist without web. Remeber Loudpedals daily update on his R&C Egorama? It was all here on the HAMB to read every day, but not on the R&C web site.
Can I buy an ad on this post because I expect it will go a ton of pages with a ton of views- EXACTLY what an advertiser is looking for! That's not sarcasm- truth. Please know I'm a kidding a little Ryan because I know you aren't selling. I'm just pointing out that with anything that's successful and well read like the HAMB there will always be solid interest from an advertiser.
uhhhh... its not hard. When you get a jump in sales after an effective advertising campaign the proof is right there. I've been on the backend of some major campaigns produced by giants in the advertising biz... J.Walter Thompson, Oglivy and Mather... and the results from an effective campaign can be worth millions to the bottom line. Easily tracked.
Written three years ago: http://www.atomicindustry.com/?p=22 Afterwards, I got emails from a number of folks (even a few that have replied to this thread) saying that I was nuts. They told me about how hard they worked to create good content, that the magazine was great and that I was over critical, etc... Bottom line. The publishing industry is getting blown up. Some will make it, most will not. Those that do will be the guys that FOCUS entirely on their content. Their users/readers will be the number one priority. Advertisers will not be more than 30% or so of their revenue stream. Call me crazy again.
Agreed!!! I subscribed to most all the car mags for decades until a few years ago. One bright sunny morning I realized that I was looking at NOTHING but slickly packaged advertisements and editorials that were slanted for the advertisers. After all, how many times does anyone really need to see a pictorial on installing a MKII kit in one widget after another. I think what did it for me was when Street Rodder (the 800 lb gorilla in the car mag business) did a big spread on building an English Wheel that was totally a crock of crap. Full of miss-information bullshit. Obviously written by someone who didn't have a clue. I also agree with your earlier comment about value of advertising. We went the paper ad route and discovered our money was much better spent actually going to events and talking to people who were actually interesting in our products.
Tracked by an ad agency right? Can't bullshit a bullshitter... I was an exec at the largest online ad agency in the world. I'm not arguing that all advertising is ineffective. I'm arguing that's it's all over valued. And that the economy is going to help sort it out. Obviously, some advertising is extremely effective. But that advertising isn't about the media. It's about the creative work behind it. Look at Apple.
It is an ever changing world, those that change and adapt and evolve..... survive....Those that don't..... become extinct......simple historical fact!
The other problem with print media is they got so greedy that they diluted their own product with multiple titles. How many late model Mustang books so they need? Custom Classic Trucks and Classic Truck along side Truckin' and Sport Trucks, come on, get rid of one of the classic trucks books and Sport Truck so the advertiser gets more readership for their $$. These are just a couple of examples of the stupidity in the publishing world. It permeates the industry but especially with the Peterson/McMullen/Argus/Primedia/Source Interlink conglomeration. As for the money paid to editorial staff vs. ad staff, that certainly is nothing new, and when I was at McMullen a long time ago and was offered the Mini Truck Editorship (I was an associate editor at Truckin") I asked why I would take a huge pay cut from my regular job to do it!
Yes, but you, and a few others, are the exception. Lots, like myself, my Dad, and most of my local car friends that I've discussed this exact issue with, have given up subscribing to or buying mags off the rack. Every now and then I might purchase one IF there is something in there that I've first be clued in to on HAMB such as a friends car being featured. I do feel for the mag employees and for the subscribers that don't have access to other forms of information.
Ryan....The WSJ is still the only print publication making money on the 'net. NYT and LAT both dropped their "pay to read" sections several years ago. Tracking print ad results has always existed and those results determined our client buys. I find it interesting that you preach the gospel of traditional hot rodding and poo-poo the tradition of print media at the same time. I would agree with you that the print media has never taken on the 'net. I know a Source Interlink writer who is required to write web content four times a week in addition to his editorial and photo assignments. He will be the first to tell you that his blogs suck and he gets nary a dime more for the work. It's times like these that I'm glad I'm old and don't have to bother with crap like print vs. internet or, for that matter, Ford vs. Chevy. It's a lot more fun to go through the magazines that have stuff I wrote or ads I created than troll the web. I can even do that when the electricity is out!
Speaking of ads, have you guys noticed PAW seems to hardly advertise like they used to? Their catalog is online only now, too. I went in there the other day for an hour or so and I don't think they had one phone order, and they *JUST* now added a shopping cart to their website! It barely works, but bettern nothing. The magazine websites seem to be pretty equally crappy. Freiburger is one of the best to come around in ages, he'll land on his feet no matter what. Kinda sucks he's the king of a dying medium though. I remember reading the Editor's column a few years ago of O/T Grassroots Motorsports where the owner passed on a big money buyout cuz he enjoyed doing the magazine and wanted his kids involved. He seems like a really great guy that started from basically nothing and built it up, I hope he doesn't regret his decision. I even get Autoweek magazine, and it seems kinda dated by the time you get the latest one in your hands. Sucks. I interviewed at Car Craft like 5 years ago. Great magazine, but for what they paid how could anybody afford to work on it. You'd have to use credit cards every month to get by, living very modestly. The 'staff' on these books are tiny. They do an amazing job with what they have, but the cracks are starting to show, ie stories about bolting on advertisers new heads every month.
This is the new "American Way", since we increasingly MAKE NOTHING, the "smart people" have found a way to get rich by useing other peoples money, this is not a new thing, what is new is that any idiot can look at the financial position these folks have put their companies into and tell that there is no chance of financial return. What happened is that investors bought the mags, their hired management got fat, and when the investors did "good", they propped up the company well enough to sell it to another group of suckers for an even more inflated price. Eventually the house of cards falls down. Where was 60 minuites when all of this was happening? It is enough to drive you crazy, the only solution I have found that works for me is to try not to give a shit.... still really sad though.
I've noticed in recent years how the articles tend to favor the advertisers. Nothing new here....just more of it. I checked the ad card a couple years back when I considered putting in some modest print advertsing with HRM and with a couple others. The ad rates for even a small B& W ad were out of sight in price; so, I passed. I also began to realize that my own website pulled in more customers than I imagined. A point of interest with HRM....their column on relative and interesting websites listed my site (www.flatheadv8.com) late last year. I suppose they made the effort to at least go to the site and have a look around, but no one from HRM bothered to contact me to verify anything about it before publishing the link. Nor did they bother to use my graphic with the article. The picture they published came from who-knows-where....... I personally still believe that the print magazines will always have a place with the public. What else are you going to carry into the men's room for reading material.....a laptop??
I'm not an economics expert or a buisness owner just a customer or a potential customer. the stuff I do is out of the mainstream so most adds for SBC chrome dipstick tubes look like so much bla, bla, bla to me. I rely on word of mouth from a small groupe of like minded associates and frends for where and what to buy. as a guy at the botom looking up what you say about customer service rather than flashy adds rings true. I was an avid reader of one car mag. that appealed to guys like me until it went mainstream with the usual 10 pages of useful info and 60 pages of bla, bla, bla.
You don't have to pay for advertising on this thread or any other. As YOU know all you have to do is ad to the conversations here on the HAMB with your posts and you've gotten free advertising for your site via your signature line. You're no fool One of the major points that Freiburger missed.
didnt say anything different... advertising has been over valued for a long time. however, EFFECTIVE advertising is worth its weight in gold. Thats all I said. I've seen the results of it, not measured by the advertising agency, but by the bottom line of some major corporations. The companies that spend millions on ads arent stupid, they track their dollars and results, if the results are there the agency gets a new contract. Pretty simple. The agencies I worked for tracked it as well to see whats effective and whats not, in order to offer a better product to the client. Thats the way it should be. If an agency is just showing the client happy numbers for the sake of getting the next contract, shit, thats just lieing to the client and yourself. an ad can be creative as all hell, and still not result in sales, therefore its useless. The key to an EFFECTIVE campaign is the combination of WHY, WHAT, WHEN and HOW you are advertising. Most ads are not done for the right combination of the elements above and therefore are not effective. If the ads arent generating sales, you've got one or more of the elements wrong and need to change. Get the combo right, no matter the media, or how creative it is, and it results in sales... which is what advertising is about.
Really I was trying to be a little funny. Look at the number of views already- that's what sells- or at least gets people's attention.
so it appears the only rags makin money are stuff like Playboy etc.,Hell I was surprised when autobuff went under........so what can we expect ???? HotRod - R&C _Car Craft merging? it happened before.......I guess if they survive the rates will go thru the roof.
What I don't understand, Ryan, is why you come across as gleeful over the print biz going through an extremely hard time. Yeah, I think all of this will clear out some of the poorly crafted, dis-tasteful DEAD WOOD. Hopefully, the good ones will remain. If I'm not mistaken (wouldn't be the first time), weren't you the one who, a few years back, declared "print IS dead"? Again, we all know that we are going, and will continue, to go through increasingly harder times, but there are many, many thousands of print lovers out here. As long as that is a simple fact, print will go on. No disrespect Ryan, really, you're a very nice guy with a brilliant mind, but you always come across as slightly more than zealous in these issues.
From http://www.sourceinterlink.com <table class="content" border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td>MAGAZINES</td> <td>WEBSITES</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Automotive</td></tr> <tr><td>5.0 Mustang & Super Fords</td> <td>www.50mustangandsuperfords.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Automobile</td> <td>www.automobilemag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.automotive.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Car Audio and Electronics</td> <td>www.caraudiomag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Car Craft</td> <td>www.carcraft.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Chevy High Performance</td> <td>www.chevyhiperformance.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Circle Track</td> <td>www.circletrack.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Corvette Fever</td> <td>www.corvettefever.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Custom Classic Trucks</td> <td>www.customclassictrucks.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>European Car</td> <td>www.europeancarweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Eurotuner</td> <td>www.eurotuner.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>GM High-Tech Performance</td> <td>www.gmhightechperformance.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>High Performance Pontiac</td> <td>www.highperformancepontiac.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Honda Tuning</td> <td>www.hondatuningmagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Hot Rod</td> <td>www.hotrod.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Import Tuner</td> <td>www.importtuner.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.intellichoice.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.internetautoguide.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Kit Car</td> <td>www.kitcarmag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Lowrider Arte</td> <td>www.lowriderarte.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Lowrider</td> <td>www.lowridermagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Lowrider Bike</td> <td>www.lowriderbike.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Modified</td> <td>www.modified.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Modified Luxury & Exotics</td> <td>www.modifiedle.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Mopar Muscle</td> <td>www.moparmusclemagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Motor Trend</td> <td>www.motortrend.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Motor Trend</td> <td>www.motortrendenespanol.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords</td> <td>www.musclemustangfastfords.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Mustang & Fords</td> <td>www.mustangandfords.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Mustang Monthly</td> <td>www.mustangmonthly.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.newcar.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Popular Hot Rodding</td> <td>www.popularhotrodding.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Project Car Magazine</td> <td>www.projectcarmag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Rod and Custom Magazine</td> <td>www.rodandcustommagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.siphonmagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Sport Compact Car</td> <td>www.sportcompactcarweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Stock Car Racing</td> <td>www.stockcarracing.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Street Rodder</td> <td>www.streetrodderweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Super Chevy</td> <td>www.superchevy.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Super Street</td> <td>www.superstreetonline.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Truck Trend</td> <td>www.trucktrend.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Turbo & High-Tech Performance</td> <td>www.turbomagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Vette</td> <td>www.vetteweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Truck</td></tr> <tr><td>4Wheel Drive & Sport Utility</td> <td>www.4wdandsportutility.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>4Wheel & Off-Road</td> <td>www.4wheeloffroad.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Classic Trucks</td> <td>www.classictrucks.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Diesel Power</td> <td>www.dieselpowermag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Four Wheeler</td> <td>www.fourwheeler.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>JP Magazine</td> <td>www.jpmagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Mini Truckin'</td> <td>www.minitruckinweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Off-Road</td> <td>www.off-roadweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Sport Truck</td> <td>www.sporttruck.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Truckin'</td> <td>www.truckinweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Motorcycle</td></tr> <tr><td>ATV Rider</td> <td>www.atvrideronline.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Baggers</td> <td>www.baggersmag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Dirt Rider</td> <td>www.dirtrider.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Hot Bike</td> <td>www.hotbikeweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Motorcycle Cruiser</td> <td>www.motorcyclecruiser.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Motorcyclist</td> <td>www.motorcyclistonline.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Sport Rider</td> <td>www.sportrider.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Street Chopper</td> <td>www.streetchopperweb.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Super Street Bike</td> <td>www.superstreetbike.com</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Action Sports</td></tr> <tr><td>Bike</td> <td>www.bikemag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Canoe & Kayak</td> <td>www.canoekayak.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.fantasysurfer.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Powder</td> <td>www.powdermag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Skateboarder</td> <td>www.skateboardermag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Slam</td> <td>www.slamonline.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Snowboarder</td> <td>www.snowboardermag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Surfer</td> <td>www.surfermag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Surfing</td> <td>www.surfingthemag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.wavewatch.com</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Marine</td></tr> <tr><td>Power & Motoryacht</td> <td>www.powerandmotoryacht.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Voyaging</td> <td>www.voyagingonline.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Sail</td> <td>www.sailmagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.sailbuyersguide.com</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Home Tech</td></tr> <tr><td>Home Theater</td> <td>www.hometheatermag.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Shutterbug</td> <td>www.shutterbug.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Stereophile</td> <td>www.stereophile.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.ultimateavmag.com/</td> </tr> <!-- <tr><td> </td> <td>www.homeentertainment-expo.com</td> </tr> //--> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.audiovideointeriors.com</td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Equine</td></tr> <tr><td>Arabian Horse World</td> <td>www.ahwmagazine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td> </td> <td>www.equine.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>EQUUS</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr><td>Dressage Today</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr><td>Horse & Rider</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr><td>Practical Horseman</td> <td> </td> </tr> <tr><td colspan="2">Soaps</td></tr> <tr><td>Soap Opera Digest</td> <td>www.soapoperadigest.com</td> </tr> <tr><td>Soap Opera Weekly</td> <td>www.soapoperaweekly.com</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <!-- BRANDED PRODUCTS Will link to SIM Licensing Page SPECIAL EVENTS Will link to SIM Events Page //--> TV / RADIO PROGRAMS Hot Rod TV Motor Trend Radio
OK, so explain this to a dumb airplane guy. If you sell a magazine that has what readers want, i.e. good tech, good pics and articles wouldn't the advertisers want to be in that market pool? I think if someone has a product, they should be allowed to test it ,and post the results in the tech article. So many articles are skewed by the advertisers checkbook, that I have a hard time believing anything I read. I guess I have become skeptical of everyone.
I hate to see how this all shakes out..On the HAMB every day,sometimes several times a day,but I hate to see what's happening to print..Having said that,reading an ad-filled Street Rodder lost its appeal long ago...Reading what insiders have posted rings true..Spotlight on advertisers product,magazine installs,and a full page ad of the same product..I remember reading years ago somewhere how custom magazines couldn't make it,since custom guys didn't do 1-800 billet,and they don't give a shit what's under their car.. And when I see mid sized street rod suppliers run full page ads,every month,in more than one magazine,I have to wonder at the cost,AND the ROI...My only logical conclusion was they weren't mid sized at all,or there were a helluva lot more street rod guys supporting them than I thought... I agree with Ryan..some of them are going to get a lot thinner...I think they already have..
http://www.sourceinterlink.com/reorg/letter_to_advertisers/ Wish I could cancel almost $1 Billion of existing debt.
I honestly haven't purchased a magazine subscription since joining the HAMB, and I'll only pick up a magazine if there's a car that belongs to someone I know or that I've worked on in it.
I personally still believe that the print magazines will always have a place with the public. What else are you going to carry into the men's room for reading material.....a laptop??[/QUOTE] No, just your cell phone.
The Jalopy Journal
