For your consideration.

I had the time off work. The car was loaded , my wife had time off from volunteer work. The dog-sitter was set up. Our friends in the Tulsa area were waiting for us and....Mudflap PMd me and tell us the SDRA race was canceled.

That was very nice of 'Flap and life goes on but it did leave me with 1,000 miles of driving to think about what caused this and what we might do to change the situation.

The race was canceled because of a lack of cars.Various reasons, and good ones at that, were given but the net result was that only three cars could make it for Friday night.

I think the Hambster development has been some very good work on a brilliant concept . It may, however, be too confining to grow at a reasonable rate that would produce full fields and wide participation.

I think we should now concentrate on ease-of-entry rule changes to open the field up to more people. Here, in no particular order, are some unsolicited suggestion about how this might be achieved:

1.MOVE THE IMAGINARY TIME- SLOT FOR THE CARS FROM THE EARLY FIFTIES TO THE LATE FIFTIES.

**** Kraft's car is just too primitive to reasonably emulate.

Most Hambster aslready look like late 50's type rails anyway.

2. ALLOW V6'S AND V8S INTO THE PROGRAM AS ACCEPTED ENGINES.

Restrict horsepower by limiting them to a one-barrel carburetor or a very restrictive intake plate.

Flatheads and early Sixes require just too much ancient technology and adaptors.

With a V6 or V8 a would-be participant can have a drive line for a couple of hundred dollars plus a ring-and-rod bearing job and be in business.

Automatic transmission come attached to most of these old 1970 type 305/turbo350 or 302/C4 salvage yard drivelines.

3. SET A FRONT AND REAR AXLE MINIMUM WIDTH.

Make it like 48 inches and leave it at that.

Guys who could be racing now are looking for loopholes so they can run Crossly or Anglia front ends.

Potential racers are frozen from beginning a project because the rules are so vague they dont know how to proceed.

4. TAKE THIS FROM A BUILD-IT YOURSELF CL*** TO A BUY-IT -AND- FINISH-IT CL***.

Most potential racers and enthusiasts do not have the ability to fab-up a ch***is from a chalk line on the floor.

No professional ch***is shop can begin any production 'till the rules a firmed up.

These ch***is should be a "no brainer " for any decent ch***is shop to produce with a minimal body and seat at a modest price.

5. ADOPT NHRA 10 SECOND-AND-SLOWER CAGE RULES AND BE DONE WITH IT.

The cars lould be legal anywhere then.

With the recession, pro teams dropping out and sponsors drying up the NHRA is too busy trying to save itself to pay any attention to us.

We could be discussing rules for rolbars five years from now.

I realize some of this treads on some very sacrossanct ground, but that's an outline of where I think the discussion should go now. I'll be packing up for the late June race and heading for Tulsa.

Wadayathink?

 

#1 WTF?? It's not rocket science and as you say the cars are already more late '50s than early '50s so whats the problem??

#2 Not just NO, but Hell No!! early engines and sticks are what the cl*** is about. the early technology is what the whole thing is based on, and if the folks want to build bracket racers along the same designs let them, but that is not what the concept and spirit is all about. Might as well make anything legal and just put a smaller restrictor on the bigger engines and call it NASCAR Drag Racing, all the cars could be identical and just put different logos on the cowl.

#3 Again WTF!! How difficult is it to figure out that you just have to leave whatever axles you use the width they were when they came from the factory.

#4 If you think this is a good idea you are smoking some weird ****. If you think this is a good idea just look at what has happened with any other "spec racing" cl***. Or IRL, NASCAR and the rest. Every time someone decides to make a cl*** closer or "cheaper", it turns into a joke. The whole idea is home built cars of the design that the builder envisions, not store bought look a likes with the engine of choice of the builder as long as it is cheap and reliable. It has been said many times here.......if it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

#5 If the cage bothers you just build to the NHRA specs and be done with it, many folks are doing so and it doesn't really seem to be a problem.

Just my two cents worth, but I think most of the true HA/GR builders will agree with my points.

If you want to build with an automatic trans run with the SDRA boys, if you want to run a V6, or some kind of non-flathead V8 or late model 6 fine, build it and go run brackets, but don't try and get us to call it an HA/GR.

 

So, I guess your not really in favor with this.

 

Butch,

Get ready for some verbal abuse from the HA/GR guys. I have suggested a couple of rule changes in the past (radial tires & rev limiter to save the engine) and caught all kinds of hell. I finally learned to keep my mouth shut and built a legal HA/GR car.

Since our car runs over 120 in the quarter I'm somewhar concerned with the lack of a speed rating on the Coker Cl***ic tires and the GMC's are prone to destroy the cranks if the rpm gets too high.

However the guys have a point that we built the car knowing what the rules were so we have nobody to blame except ourselves.

I think your suggestions will fall on deft ears and I hope you don't become too frustrated. The cl*** is different but it sure can be fun along with the frustration.

Ron

 

I know that this could get ugly but I want to say something about going to overhead V-8's. If we do that we will be way over our heads speed wise. I could build a cheap small block Chevrolet engine and go 140mph easy in my car. I don't want to go 140mph in my car. I realize that we could not make the last race and I was all ready to go but I think that we can weather the storm. If you are a purist and want to crash gears go the HA/GR route or if you want to have a little more la***ude and race cheaper go the SDRA route, if you are HA/GR you can still race with the SDRA. My hope is that can make small changes to help people but keep the speed safe because if we start getting these things up in 130 to 140 range we are going to be way to unsafe at that speed with the constuction of them. I know that there are engines out there that are old but can still be made to produce the HP. Just keep building your car and bring it to Tulsa, we will help you with tips and places to go to get parts. I know others will show up with cars so we can put on a got show. Roy

 

348,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think a small block with a one barrel carb will go much over 90 to 100 mph.

I think the idea of low power, low traction cars is a great idea to keeps racing in an affordable range.

That said, why does it make any differenc if the motive power is a V8?

Now I'm not talking a bout a Jegs/Summit $6000.00 long block with HEI and $300.00 valve covers.

Just a Plain Jane small block.

There were lots of them around in dragsters.

 

Equally as unsolicited, I'll add my two cents worth....
1. Agree with this. Too many drivers killed or injured in those early days. That's why the NHRA rules have evolved into an almost 300-page volume.

2. Agree with this. Years ago, I had an idea to start a program called Stockrail. The idea was to build an affordable car using a stock engine and drivetrain to keep costs down so that more fellows could participate. My idea was to run a two barrel carb with an adapter from the stock cast iron intake manifold to the two barrel. Stock, cast iron exhaust manifolds were mandatory. There isn't a whole lot you can do to the internals of the motor to produce power if you're hobbled with a two barrel and stock, cast iron exhaust manifolds.

Automatic transmissions were available to the general car-buying public by 1949, so the time line for their acceptance in a program such as this seems natural to me. You could police a rule for 1500 rpm max stall by running the motor up against the brake in technical inspection. This would eliminate the use and cost of a high stall converter and transbrake.

3. The wider the front and rear track, the more stable the car. But like you said, if there are fellows who would build a car if the track were spec'd narrower, then change the rules.

4. I can see where a commercially-available frame/body/seat kit could work. A shop could add options each step of the way. Option A could be adding a roll cage. Option B could be adding the differential housing mounted to the car. Option C could be adding the front axle mounted, and so forth and so on.

I have access to a fully-equipped shop to build this type of car and it wouldn't take much for me to do a start-up business constructing them.

5. As you know, I have pe***ioned NHRA to allow teching these 12.00 and slower cars as dune-buggy-type vehicles in order to allow them to run with a simple, single hoop roll bar, but as you said, they may not get around to a decision for years. As unpalatable as it may seem to some of you, biting the bullet and installing a legal cage may be the only option for now in order to entice more fellows to build cars that they are certain will p*** tech anywhere.

There is another way around all this. No matter the NHRA rules, most track operators will rent out the track to any organization that wants to run a race event. You could rent just the track and a skeleton crew of timing shack, stager and starter and use your own insurance and your own tech inspector(s). (Picture me with my hand in the air, waving). You could rent out concession space to food purveyors, speed equipment manufacturers, novelty and game merchants, etc. on a per diem and/or percentage-of-the-take basis.

This would take close cooperation of some of you main players to divvy up responsibilities in putting this together, but it can be done.

Seeing the empty stands at the regular Friday Nite Drags at Firebird, I approached the Operations Manager many years ago about ways to improve the head count. I suggested that the track print up some p***es allowing 4 people and 1 car to get in free to spectate in the stands. My thinking was that only a handful of people in this Metro area even KNOW that there is a drag strip here and that by admitting more people for free for a while, the word would get around and we'd have a packed house on Friday nights. At the least, look at all the profit that could be realized from concessions with more people on the grounds.

I'll never forget what he said....."We couldn't do that.....it would be giving away the inventory"!!!!!

I said...."Well, don't look now Jeff, but your inventory is spoiling every Friday night and goes unsold".....

He was unyielding, so I just threw up my hands and walked away. Never again have I ever mentioned anything that might improve head count or improve things in any way.

My sincerest condolences go out to the family of Mr. Common Sense, who seems to have p***ed away at some point in my lifetime.

 

That has to be the dictionary example of true "understatement".
Good one Butch.

Tom's nothing if not firm in his opinions, and definitely less than bashful about'em as well.


Butch, I'll try to make what I believe to be an honest point, minus the histrionics.

First, the structure;
Were we to go to an easier and more commercially viable structure it would indeed attract more players. No argument there.
I feel it would, as a matter of course, attract players that are more inclined toward throwing money at it and getting away with whatever they might. In other words, players with neither the patience nor the p***ion for the goals of the cl***, and who's reasons for playing would be anathemic to it.

My own conclusion;
For me, the question is answered in the harsh light of what the changes would actually bring. Were the cl*** to remain small and localized I'd continue to enjoy it as it is. Were it to grow into something national in the same way I'd love it.
But were that growth at the cost of the types of friends I've gained already through it? No, I'd likely drop out, just wouldn't be the same for me.
I'd wish the cl*** only the best in it's new direction, but from a safe distance.

I freely admit this is likely not conducive to turning HA/GR into a "Beatles"esque phenomenon (OK, maybe just a tad histrionic on that one, but it was a cute referrence ) but that's honestly not one of my first goals for the cl***. Actually, it isn't even on the first list for me.

I've also watched, over the years, such cl***es as Formula V(W), Formula F(ord), Pure Stock, Econorail and several others attempt to go this route. None are around today and that scares me a bit as well.

Believe me, this is no "flame", merely my own thoughts on it in response.


ps. One of these days I really must learn to type faster .....

 

Aw, dammit, here I go again.....

STOP TRYING TO CHANGE THE ****ING RULES OF THE CL***!!!!

why do so many come in here, supposedly interested in what the cl*** has to offer, and then not very far in, try to change the rules to suit their own agenda?

I've repeatedly said that each of us here brings a unique perspective, and a unique agenda to the cl***- LET IT BE THAT WAY. Don't try to force YOUR agenda on the rest of us.

wanna be the fastest- go ahead!
wanna be the most vintage parts?- go ahead!
wanna try to build the least $$ car?- GO AHEAD!
whatever YOU want to pull from this- GO AHEAD!!! Just don't try to get the rest of us to play your way.

As far as numbers- well- I'd rather the cl*** stay small, exclusive, and misunderstood. M*** appeal and full fields are the polar opposite of what this cl*** stands for, and was originally designed to be, and would be the end of my involvement as well. The built in limiting factors of this cl*** limit more than trap speeds- they limit the understanding of the cl***, and therefore the involvement. THANK GOD!!!!

I can't begin to tell you how many times I've heard some version of "why don't you just...." during my build, from someone who doesn't "get it". That guy will never "get it", and, as such, will never be lined up in the next lane, and that's GREAT!! I have no idea how many hours of studying I've done, trying to understand the early cars, the racers, the methods, etc, and by keeping the rules as such, I think we all do it, and we all have a common bond that brings us to this cl*** with the p***ion we have. Water down the cars, water down the p***ion, LOSE the cl***.

I'm bettin' you have the p***ion for this stuff, or you wouldn't be here, just like the rest of us. Hopefully I'll get my car done, make it to Tulsa and Mokan, and we'll get to square off-all six of us or however many show up. Let the cl*** be- you'll get your races!

 

Hey 'Sled,

Looked, couldn't find the "****ing" rules. Do these require an NHRA approved condom?

Sorry, couldn't resist it ...... forgive me?

 

Any would-be HA/GR compe***or who can't or doesn't want to build his own car can take pictures from this site, along with the rules, to a fab shop that builds drag cars and tell them to build a ch***is that resembles the pictures and is legal to 10:00. That should be no problem for any of them.
If there should be a groundswell of HA/GR and SDRA construction, I can see that permitting additional low-potential in-line engines could happen.
In another recent thread, Old6 (****) related that the original intent was to kind of voluntarily limit these functional tributes to the roots of drag racing to mid-12's. By doing so some of the other concerns, such as high speed capabilities of the tires, diminish.
My prediction: An Early Slingshot group will emerge. Utilizing 10:00 legal ch***is, full width front and rear ends, very narrow slicks, and a host of (hopefully vintage)engines somehow limited to 350HP. There's a pile of roll bar material in my garage just waiting... This would provide an outlet for the folks that want to tinker with the HA/GR concept, and keep HA/GR true to its original intent.

 

AMEN moparsled!! You said it right!!

 

A host of late '50s slingshots'd be one hell of a thing to see indeed. The old open driver's "office" would have to change of course but all the full body, weed sweepers, six dueces stuff'd be killer. Maybe even the big-***ed steering wheels as well .......

Not my stuff, but God, it'd be cool as hell.
WDIFL photo from '55 .........
(by the way folks, they didn't look anything like HA/GR by then)

 

yes- NHRA #80085
don't forget the firesuit and helmet- wouldn't wan't anything bad to happen.
Arm restraints not required, but recommended!!!!

 

Ooooooh, restraints!
Kay wants to know if they make 6" heel fire booties ........

 

As I understand it only in the 'top fuel' SFI ratings and they are custom order only, aparently they are made of unobtanium though, they charge disproportionatly extra by the inch, ......... of heel ya perv.

 

So! It sounds like there might be a call for a builder, or two, to come up with a BASIC dog sled for these cars that could be bought at a reasonable price for the "construction challenged". If this would get more people on the track give it a try.

Jr Clark
CrkInsp

 

Speedway Motors T bucket frame

 

Hi Mopar, that's the easy part. You need one with the cage on it and rear end mounts. And a battery tray, and a few more small mounts.

 

Why not just go all the way and have someone build and sell a "turnkey basic HA/GR". They could all have Chevy 235 sixes with an offy two carb intake and a pair of Rochesters, Hedman hedders, a standard three speed ****** and a 9" Ford rear axle with gearing of your choice mounted on a spool.

Perhaps we could have the cars delivered to their door with an HA/GR spec trailer and a free certificate for a three day basic drivers cl*** included in the package.

Sort of a "gold chainer" live the dream deal.

Come on guys.......drag racing a car like this takes more than wanting to look the part. If you are serious about this kind of cl***, you will need some basic skills and building ability to make it work. It began as a builders sport and that is what these cars are about.

If you want it handed to you on a platter, go buy a stock door slammer and run the brackets.

 

I know I live on the other side of the world , but to me the true essence of these cars is to build the ****er yourself .I do not have access to a fabrication shop , so every bracket was designed and built in my home workshop.
To me a huge part of the buzz has been the construction and then trying to extract horsepower from an antique piece of iron.
My 2 cents worth.

 

I was talking about the basic dog sled (thats what it looks like), 2 rails and a cage or hoop if you will. Not a turn key car. I, in no way, want to see cookie cutter cars.
We already have that in NHRA, NASCAR, and the IRL. BORING! Why not help a guy along the path to getting a car started (hopefully completed) and on the track. Does it bother you that he bought that much of his car. If so, I sure hope you didn't buy any speed parts to run on your car. If you bad mouth him for what he bought, why are you any better.

When your the only car, its awfully lonely out there making bye runs. Wouldn't it be nice to have some compe***ion, or at least some one to BS with that has a like interest. Maybe even build a rivalry with. Remember - A one car motorcade doesn't hold your attention very long.

Life as I see it.

 

I think 64 Dodge 440's comment hit the nail on the head when he said this was a 'builders cl***'.

One thing I really liked about dragsters in the late '50s was that if you saw someone driving one you knew he built it, There was no other way to get one.

I really liked that when I first saw the HA/GR's.

Now I'm questioning if this does not make the cl*** too restrictive.

I think the idea of a basic "dog sled" would open up the cl*** to more people who could finish a car but could not build it from the chalk line on the floor to the finished product,

 

Take it how you want.......there aren't a lot of "speed parts" out there for a '34 Dodge flathead 6. Not bad mouthing anyone, just saying it's a build it your self cl***.

 

Sometime we all need a little head start, I don't have a tube bender, and a lot of people would like something to start with. 440 did you build your own carberator? And have you done your first burnout yet?

 

Hey guys,

I'm staying the hell out of this conversation. Been there...done that... and got my **** chewed every way from Sunday. My crew has followed the rules and have a "Pure" HA/GR car and we're tickled to death. Granted, a few things would have been easier but we managed to overcome the obsticles and are proud of what we have. AND WE"RE HAVING A BALL !

Do it by the rules and it will work out.

Ron

 

There's been HA/GR and (I'm not sure about this) SDRA cars sold. The new owners didn't build them but will race them. I doubt anyone will begrudge the fact that the new owner/racers are not builders. The idea of a purchasable ch***is has its appeal in terms of growing the cl***. I do have a concern that that will reduce creativity and variety. It would be a lot cooler if a motivated wannabe racer would look at an array of existing ch***is and completed cars and then contact a fab shop that could turn his desires into bent, welded steel and have it be safe and legal (to the extent required where the racer will run).
As far as building a spec. or catalog ch***is to be offered to would-be racers, I'm afraid the cost would be offputting. When you build it youself, the labor is free. And, the money goes in in small doses so it doesn't seem so bad.
I'd be luckey to make minumum wage building HA/GR ch***is if I was to sell them at what seems like a reasonable price to the prospective buyer.
The allure of this adventure for me is building and racing one of these things. For some, it might simply be racing. If someone really wants to race, he'll find a way to have one built, same as having any other type of drag car built.

 

No I don't have a tube bender,but I have been able to borrow one, started with a $50.00 Model T ch***is and a bunch of swap meet scrounged or donated parts, Didn't build my own carburetors, they were salvaged form an old Volvo that was getting s****ped, but I did build the intake.

No it hasn't done a burnout yet, I took a sizable part of 2008 0ff to recover from open heart surgery to repair a blown out Mitral valve. Got a new birthday on January 10th '08 and savoring every day since as bonus time.

This build isn't going as fast as many others as I am working at a slower pace on a fixed(?) income of social security and a very small pension from my days as an aircraft tool and die maker, and scrounging and building the thing from what I scrounge. It will get done and it will run fine and the build is more important to me than having a ready made car and going racing. We may not be the fastest or quickest when we get done, but I still have good reactions and I'm looking forward to racing whoever stages in the other lane when it gets to that point.

Thanks for your interest in the project.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting some one go into m*** production or anything like that. I'm just saying if you know someone who would be helped on the way to getting a car on the track, that doesn't have the ability or capability, then go for it. From what I've read, i'm sure there are some out there that would like to get into one of these cars but don't know how to take the first step. Those of you who have built cars I ask. Was your very first attempt at building a car (any type) a cake walk??? Think before you answer. Now, do you see why some people out there are so hesitant to start a car(project) like this.

 

I'll tell you all.. I have a shop that with the equiptment that we have. I could build one of those CNC one off race cars.. But I chose to build it like I would have in my garage at home, Because that was the idea of this HA/GR thing.. The rails are from the s**** bin (project that went wrong). every piece was cut (and sometimes more than once) and worked by hand. I to scrounged parts. These are some of the HAMB guys that donated to the cause. Rocky, Sparky,Crazy Joe, Old6, Altered pilot, RacerRalph, etc.(Love these guys to death) So it not like a one off cookie cutter, High dollar racer.. Its one that anyone that knows which end of the wrench takes the nut loose could build, And build it in his garage with his shop tools..Yes I'm lucky, But also very old (74) and I was able to use a powered saw, instead of a hack saw etc. But it still is a Hokey ***/Gas Rail and built like it would have back 50 yrs ago. If a guy/gal wants one of these, They will figure out a way to build or buy what they want.. To hell with all these rule changes.. Build it like it was intended and "GO RACING".....