No more welding on frames in Washington State?

I found this after a friend’s dad was turned away at the Washington State Patrol inspection station. He was asked if he had welded on the frame. He said yes he had actually built the frame. The inspector asked to see his welding certification. He is not a certified welder, so they sent him away. He has built several frames in the last few years without a problem until now.<O></O>

WAC 204-10-022<O></O>
8) Frame: A motor vehicle must be equipped with a frame. If an existing frame from a recognized manufacturer is not used and a special frame is fabricated, it must be constructed of wall box or continuous section tubing, wall channel, or unitized construction capable of supporting the vehicle, its load, and the torque produced by the power source under all conditions of operation. All welding on the frame must be completed by a certified welder and the structural strength of the frame must be certified by an engineer as meeting the applicable standards set under 49 CFR 571 Parts 201, 214, 216, and 220 through 224, and the SAE Standards.
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What do you guys think are they just talking about home built frames? Can I still weld on an original frame? <O></O>

 

next time they ask if you weld on it, say no.


simple.

 

"No, i didn't weld on the frame." "Oh OK heres your title"........?

 

good thing I know a couple certified welders

 

Yep !!

But the problems descirbed above have been standard fare here in Oz.

Welcome to OUR world.....

Rat

 

"A motor vehicle must be equipped with a frame". Interesting. Where does that put a unibody?

 

Does Washington have a option to title or plate the car as a historical vehicle?

I know in Texas you don't need to go through the normal inspection if its registered as a historical vehicle.

 

That is really too bad, but not real surprising and kind of makes sense. How many jack ass projects have you seen and walked away from thinking you hope not to cross paths with that piece of crap on the road? I have seen more than I care to that is for sure. 2 words spring to mind - rat rods. But, on the other hand, I am not too sure there is a huge problem with poorly fabricated cars running around hurting innocent people. So who knows? I do know this country has too damn many ridiculous laws though, that is one thing for sure. Still, probably not a bad idea to have welders who know what the hell they are doing welding frames. When I had my frame altered, I had a great guy and certified welder do it for me because I knew I couldn't do it properly.

 

Yay, more Government.

 

Ugh...is Canada still safe to move to? I dunno about you guys, but I sure don't know any structural engineers that know a damned thing about reality except what they've read in books...would they even pass a properly welded ladder style frame by their "engineering" standards? Hell, we can't even agree on whether hairpins and tube front axles are safe to use, even though it's been done for decades...the truth is, no matter what legislation is in place, people (good or bad) will always find ways to circumvent it, so the things they're trying to stop or control will still happen whether they like it or not...

 

Well fuck.

I hate this damn state. They go though so much bullshit to keep old cars off the road its insane. Im attempting to title a car with an origional title from 1954.

The girl didnt even believe it was a title.

Gave me a stack of papers to get signed by the original owner, and noterized.

good for nothing Gregoire.

My dad went to school with her, and he said she was a bitch back then too.

 

There is alot of bad information here in canada as well. I mean when I was checking things out about my ride I got mixed information, and when I would ask gov't person about a rule or kinda a guide to what I can and cannot do, most answers I got was if you got a question phone us....patooooiiii .... I do this at night and I am pretty dam sure i'm not goin to get no personal phone numbers to ask questions.
Also ALL of the body shops should KNOW the law accordingly to body mods and how something is repaired or replaced and I tell ya the answers I commonly got was oh there is a hole yes we must charge you lots to put real steel in there...untill a friend of mine i got to know in my courier business at one place said no that is not the case if its unibody must be steel but if its framed on surface it dont need to be I use my own truck as example in this case i showed a pic to the fella who does the inspections I know. Now as for the mis information and such, i do ask this fella now and get straight answers which is nice now.
As for the welding part to a frame I believe here in canada in saskatchewan you can weld vertical but not horizontal I cant think of anything else right now its late and i'm sleepy lol.
Also when it comes to registering a car there are a few places in the city here that give me grief saying things like we need to see a inspection slip and how do we know this car was never in a accident, all questions to really increase the difficulty of registering a old car those places I don't give business to. The car I have has been registered for the whole time I have had it and it pains me to get this grief.

 

We have very strict rules here in New Zealand as well.
We also have a "Hobby Car Manual" that outlines what we can and can't do.
http://www.hotrod.org.nz/Merchandise Page Files/Hobby_Car_Technical_Manual.htm

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the more popular those p.o.s. rat rods become the more you will be seeing laws like this. when the average person who knows nothing about cars can look at one of these butchered up rusted piles of crap and can tell there unsafe then you can bet the authorities will be tightening up the regulations.

 

Interesting point.

 

You got any pictures.

 

The very scary part about that law is the bit about 'structural strength must be certified by an engineer'. It is that sentence that got my attention. We can all become certified welders, just take an adult education class and the final exam is the certification process. Now becoming a PE and making proper blueprints and etcetc that is the one that'll bring your project to a screetching halt. How did we miss that law getting on the books, best not let your home state legislators pick up on that one!

What about a kit car, what about an aftermarket chassis? Any of you guys get a certified blueprint, with the PE's stamp on it to submit to your DMV? Maybe that is one of those 'discretionary' laws that may or maynot be enforced depending on the 'cut of your cloth' so to speak. Think about it, they'll want a PE to sign off on it then they'll want you to submit three of them for crash-testing and once satisfied that the design is suitable they'll issue a title?

 

Here we go with "Berkley Government Boy" again, the government always knows best right? Live and let live -

 

I bet you could weld on a frame, that law sounds like if you plan on building something completely new. Next time just say what the cops have been treating us kids for years " JUST SAY NO"

 

In a word... no.

The provincial "engineer" here doesn't think straight axles are strong enough to hold the weight of a flathead.

Stupid book-learned genius.

The gov is changing the inspection rules now. Fortunately they pushed the changes back 1 year so they can be reviewed. So that gives us a year to fight.
No raising or lowering, no body, chassis or drivetrain mods.
What else is there?
Shucks.. we have to report paint color change.

I like safety but it would be different if the genius inspecting had half a clue.

We think it's all a conspiracy so automakers can sell more cars.

 

X2! Seattle is my home, but I'm trying like hell not move back when I return for shit like this and a lot more.

 

Have you ever seen a vehicle that due to very poor welding and fabrication you would never drive around the block in it, let alone down the freeway at 75 mph? Yeah, I think we all have.

To me it’s not so much the law here that bothers me as it is the way it is written and the terms that are used.<O</O
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As a degreed Mechanical Engineer and an AWS Certified Welding Inspector (and a guy that welds some too) I know that there is very little chance that someone, such as me, would sign off on anyone's custom made frame or alterations to an existing frame.<O</O
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Without being there as the frame is being built nobody can "certify" after the fact that the correct filler materials were used, that the parameters of the welding procedures were being followed or that the welder only welded in positions that they were certified in.<O</O
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The term "Certified" in this law is misleading. There are a multitude of different welder certification tests based on the code being used, the position of the weldment as well as a multitude of different materials that can be welded. The easiest of which (IMHO) is MIG welding plane old mild steel in the "1G" position, which is basically welding in the flat position. But can you build a complete frame with all the welds being made in the "1G Flat" position, not likely. Being "certified" doesn't mean shit unless they specify what the certification specification is. <O</O
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Additionally you would think it would also be more important to state that the frame should be inspected by an AWS Certified Welding Inspector. You know somebody trained and qualified to inspect welds, not just some state inspector who doesn't know shit from Shinola.

This "new" law is typical of many laws. It is based on a good concept, yet it is written by people unskilled about the topic and enforced by people that aren't qualified or trained to identify what is a problem and what isn't a problem.<O</O

 

If folks don't have enough sense to keep unsafe vehicles off the road themselves, then the government will step in and do it for them ...................................................... and no one will like the results.
I don't think the law was written because someone didn't have any thing better to do that day.
Larry T

 

Move to North Dakota, buy a title, the DMV will say "Wow that's old", then say "You will get your title in the mail in a few weeks". Besides, we still ride in carriages around here and people tie their horses up outside of the bar. J/K.........except about the horse part.

 

To my understanding there is no such thing as a "certified welder". Certifications in the process required for a specific application in regards to the positions you are welding in, what material you are welding on and what equipment you are using to perform the weld. A general statement of "certified welder" is largely misused.

If someone were to attend a welding class they may come out of that class as a someone who might be competent enough to weld but not certified in any specific processes. On the otherhand, if someone were to attend a entire welding program through a tech college you may very well come out with many process certifications. The trick is keeping them current as (in Wisconsin anyway) they expire every 3 years. My employer only has us become certified in a very small amount of processes, the only processes we need for our specific work we do. So am I a "certified welder" I guess I am. Could I weld on a pressurized aluminum tank... no, because I don't hold a specific cert for that process.

Anyway... with the story of your quest to have your vehicle inspected. The inspectors seam like they are trying to do there job but are misquoting terms. According to the regulation they should have asked you if the structural strength was certified by an engineer. Weather we agree that the regulation sucks or not is another can of worms.

One thought.... if someone were to buy a complete frame from a catalog outfit like Speedway or something....do they receive a certification stating it was approved by a structural engineer?

Also... there are 2 types of regulations... mandatory and voluntary. Most state and federal regs are mandatory. It appears that this is a mandatory reg but you may want to check into it just to be sure.

 

Another prime example of some dumb ass peolpe who know nothing about cars, they have a bullshit idea and make it a law without thinking it through. I can understand the certified welder part, but the engineer bit, thats over the top, 90% of us don't know how to have this inspection, who would do this for you? for this to happen you would have to built two frames, because the first one would have to be cut up to check all the thicknesses, test strength of the material, test the welds, just bullshit, wait till they tell us we can only have a red or white car on the road just wait it will happen because any other colors are destractive to other drivers and might cause an accident

 

drive it anyway

 

.... that's about how it works here in Minnesota. Folks are still getting them inspected to avoid any hassle from the cops. If they are questioned about the "safety" of there vehicle they can just hand them a copy of the approved inspection and the cops will usually leave you alone.

 

Wanna bet! Those politico's will do anything to justify their existance, plus those fat cats wouldn't be able to rake in the "free money" from their "sponsors"!

 

Personally I think the whole thing is shitty!!! I understand the logic behind it...not wanting P.O.S on the road but come on! All these laws seem to be coming out more n more so ppl won't be able to drive their home built custom rods. And will have to drive the shittty battery operated, solar powered, whatever other non-fuel powered cars are out there. Its like the old saying One bad apple spoils it for the rest. Those jackasses out there driving those pieces of crap that should not be on the road......I blame you for all these 'stupid people laws'. My .02.