No more welding on frames in Washington State?

Touché my friend. Maybe that will be the way around all this, have an engineer review your plans.

Or do like others have said. When asked if you welded on it, just say "no!"

 

Just so I understand, you don't want to use the term "rat rod", you would prefer the term "hardcore hotrod" instead to describe the same vehicle?

Not to be a jerk, but what difference would that make? You could call it a "mobile decorative people carrier" and it would still be the same as it was. I too have looked at these "hardcore hotrods" and there are quite a few of them built in the area around me that scare the bejeezus out of me!

 

I seriously doubt that. Not only do most of the inspectors NOT know the difference between a stock model A frame or an aftermarket one (boxed, etc.), fewer yet care. It's the overall appearance of the vehicle that is going to be the determining factor. If it looks like a junkyard took a dump at the inspection site, then you are probably not going to get a registration. If you bring a well designed and built vehicle the odds are very high that you will get through just fine.

You think I'm wrong? Consider if you will the state guidelines for electrical work (in Washington state). Not only do we follow NEC code, Washington also has a book of their own guidelines above and beyond that. I have done wiring in houses where the inspector barely looked at the job after inspecting my electrical panel. Why? Because I take the time to lay out my work in a manner that is almost artistic. Show some craftsmanship and people will recognize it for what it is, the extra effort put out to do a good job.

Some of the garbage being passed off as cars now is ridiculous, and I don't blame anyone for wanting to take some control over that.

 

WTF! is that all your name is worth? What can I get for a half rack?


Did anyone notice the effective date on WAC 204-10-022. This went into effect on 10-17-08. Could it be that the state found a need for this due to a major increase in homebuilt vehicles on the road. I see halfwipes being sold constantly, with the sellers braggin up how cheap they did it, and how fast.
A while back I traded into a project that someone had started. It looked great untill I tore into it. I found green plastic garden hose in the spring eyes/perch's/ 2 pieces of 1/8" strap with 7/8' holes used to mount the worn out ford tie rod ends to the frame. The guy figured that if he mashed washers on either side of the 7/8 hole it would keep the bones in place. never mind the major slop front to back or a piece of 1/8' strap to hold it. I could go for a while on this one but will cut to the weld job to wrap this up. he built his own ladder bar rear clip as he said "its just like a Art Morrison" (but then oxygen and Gin are kinda the same too) Some how he forgot to weld the bottms of his homemade 1 3/4 X 3 rear clip. you know the part that spreads apart once a load is added. Needless to say it took twice as long to fix this half wipe POS then it would have to build it. We can be diligent in our approach but there will always be those out there that are just chasing money with no concern for safety.

 

Maybe you should ask the inspector what cert he wants. Being in the welding business 42 years I can tell you that there is a cert for every material, evey process of welding and every position that the weld is done in. So see if Mr. Goverment has the answer. I had a goverment inspector not pass a job because he was looking at a 25 year old spec. on some pipe. After askin three associate ( and two weeks later) he determined that the pipe I was using was correct.

 

Wow i have to agree 100% I have donme exactly this. Grreat analogy. My friend needed help doing his "owner rewire". When I helped wire his 200 amp panel i ran every wire perfectly parrallel, with 90 degree bends into the breaker. it was absoulutly clean. When the inspector came out the first thing he did was look at the box. He says "this has to be the prettiest box I have ever seen" (No puns here boys) He looks at my friend and says "Did you do this" my friend sasys yes sir did i get it right , the book says "in a journeyman like manner" so I did the best I could. The inspector say "and it sure shows here. He signend off..... end of story. a stste trooper that I was in buisness with used to say "junky car, junky person"

 

If you don't think they will know the difference, go ahead and spend 2 years building your car. Then take it in and have them tell you it wont pass. Then take it home and start all over with a new frame. I would rather find out what will pass then build or buy what will pass the first time.

 

They wont know the difference if it is done right, clean, and professionally. If it looks like shit then there ya go!

 

the bigger the glob, the better the job

 

Torn on this, at least a "standard" is written, however it is generic and getting an engineer to understand this then applying it to a specific project is bull5%$#. Building a full tubed chassis for a 1/4 mile 7 second car there are guide lines and recommendations available. It should be the same for after market / home built frames, not a generic standard that covers several mechanical applications.
Break it down as said above, you have some people pushing crap out there, and unknowing passing it along.

I have also seen several stock frames from the 20's and 30's that I wouldn't trust either. They need to be at the minimum boxed for additional support.

I also own what the narrow minded with limited thinking call a "rat rod" that they discard into the POS pile. What they don't know is under the 26 model T extended cab is a frame and running gear exceeding original and these standards listed for WA. Mechanically great, esthetically a rat.

 

The things I see that come through my shop on a regular basis are very scary, and most people that have most of the junk would never even bring it into the shop.
Not just on rat rods but on stock classics, hot rods, custom, etc etc Cars in the $10,000 to $100,000 range where you look at the car and everyone gathers around just going "really?", how could they leave that?d
I am talking absolutely ridiculous there is no way it should hold to get around the block and back.

it is amazing what people drive around. It is even more amazing how most people driving things with items like tie rods about to fall apart, a big giant crack in the frame at a crucial suspension or steering point, cracking critical welds, etc etc etc Are Aware of The Problem, and keep driving with no regards to anyone's safety but their own whims.

We fixed the steering on a car the other day ( great customer to have us fix the problem ) where the car had been built with a reverse corvair box sitting on the very low frame. The heim joint on the pitman arm was by far the lowest thing on the car and would scrape and smash the pavement all the time. The heim joint was scraped/sanded 3/4 of the way through almost to the center bolt. Maybe a good whack or couple of scrapes till there would be no steering since the heim joint would be ground in half.
Or a nice 30's coupe where the rear suspension was only barely, and I mean barely, welded on it one little spot with a bird poo tackish sort of thing.

You could see these problems from 20 feet away.

I hate big government, but I have no problem with all vehicles being inspected once a year for safety like the Virginia State Inspection ( brakes, suspension, lights, steering, etc ), and having new registrations looked at by some certified welder/builder of some sorts. And making people have a certificate with any custom car that has the suspension / frame mods listed on it checked off by the same inspector as mentioned earlier.

As long as we are overbuilding our cars in consideration for other people's safety on the road, it should not be an issue. Take it as a challenge, how well can we build and design. A quick trip to an inspector, and back on the road should be a fun thing to do, not a problem as long as we are not building junk.

Our whims and egos are not more important than the other people/families driving around us. We are not the most important person on the road.

I have had my shop in Virginia, California, and North Carolina over the years, and have seen the same thing everywhere.

I am in no way trying to limit the hobby or people building it at home for the first time or working on their own cars. That is what it is all about, but think we should keep the absolutely ridiculous built cars and neglected cars off the road. Not ones/issues where there could be a debate about, but the one's where 95% of the people on The Hamb would laugh in disbelief over.

Have Fun
Wil
www.sakowskimotors.com

p.s. I don't think most politicians have our best interest in mind.
If we don't support as a hobby some sort of inspections/restrictions on unsafe cars, we are going to find a banned hobby from public streets.

 

For all this talk about how rat rods are responsible for the decline of western civilization, I just don't see any of them out on the street. I believe in quality engineering and craftsmanship, not puking on the pavement and calling it a rat rod, but really, are there hundreds of thousands of these things somewhere, killing babies and destroying trees, and I'm just not seeing them? I think we're being awfully quick to point fingers and a little slow to fix the problem.

 

lets see a pic of the frame in question. this looks to be a "were not going to be liable" law" check out my album photos of my 38' ford truck with the 50' ford clip added. its "old school" fab looks pretty scary! wouldn't want the person that did this work doing anything to my vehicles.

 

Just another reason why I HATE the term and the concept of "R*t R*d"! Some people just dont get it. They dont understand why its bad. It starts with one badly built automobile or worse yet just something that looks badly built by someone who has the power to tell you that can't drive it anymore. And then....there's a law.

There is a wide range of opinions on the term "R*t R*d", so my suggestion to the people out there who pump out their chests and say "It's ok that it looks bad cuz I built it from scratch and I didn't buy from some magazine" is if it looks like crap....... rebuild it. And if you dont have the money to rebuild it, oh well....don't put the rest of the world in harms way.

 

I have a friend who does inspections, and a relative in law enforcement, and I can tell you for CERTAIN that they do not know the difference between a model A frame or an aftermarket boxed one, and neither do they care. It's about the quality of the build. You could start with a freakin' Art Morrison frame, but if you pile garbage on top of it you are not going to get a registration.

I can't make it any clearer than that.

If the car you took in looked to be junky, then you lost the battle before you even got started. Stuff like wiring hanging off the car, rusted out panels, mismatched tires (on the same axle), poorly built and installed safety items such as the lights, etc, are going to get you sent back home on the trailer.

...and IF you run into someone who has to ask if you did the frame yourselves, then that should be a clear indication that they do NOT know what they are looking at.

Yes: it's unfair.
Yes: you'll have to lie.
Yes: they know you are lying.
Yes: no one cares!- that's the built in variable of the system, allowing the inspector discretion over the final result. Look at it like a job interview, you don't tell the interviewer you spend all day looking at porn on the computer do you? Then don't tell the inspector you built your own frame

 

The rat rods and shitty builds may be part of it but if I remember right the bill was originally aimed at the shops that stitch two cars together to make one. At least here in The Yakima Valley we have a bunch of hole in the wall shops with big batches of wrecked cars sitting outside that they take two or three and make one often sawing two in half and welding them back together.

Plus there are certain heavy truck frames that cannot be welded on. Everything has to be bolted or rivited.

 

It's a shame we can't let common sense be our guide in matters like this. We wouldn't need, and might not get so much gov't interferance in our lives. I home built a frame using 4 X 2 7ga (3/16") tubing. all corners were braced to prevent racking. I would have been able to weld it myself using my workplace's welders. We had migs from 160A to 300A available. I had used these welders for years, welding on dies. I decided to let my brother weld the frame for me instead. He worked a structural steel fab shop that, among other things welded the beams for highway over passes. All those welds were checked by the state with a portable X ray machine. They never found a single fault with my brothers welds. He brought his arc welder to my shop welded my frame and I've never had a concern about it since. If everyone would err on the side of safety maybe we wouldn't have some of the stupid and restraining laws we have had forced upon us!

 

chances are it was designed by a cad technician not an engineer and assembled by the cheapest most illiterate 3rd world labor available with cut rate materials that's how things (not built by top shelf legacy manufacturers in a union shop) are manufactured in this brave new world.

P.S. what if you took the ride to a sanctioning body like nhra or usfra and had it pass tech for 150 mph

 

I agree with your point. Not all cars people would refer to as rat rods are poorly built, but most are. My personal definition of rat rod is one that is poorly designed and built. A rat rod style car that is built well is not my taste but is fine with me. And like I said, I am not for more laws, but I am for people taking personal responsibility for what they build to insure that what they build is safe and built properly. If you need to get a certified welder to insure that happens, then that is what you should do. Does everyone do what they really should, even on critical stuff like a frame? No, they clearly don't and that is the problem. Is it a big problem we need a law for? I personally don't think so.

I agree with most other posts, it is not the welding part that is the problem, it is the engineering part. Also, it would not be a structural engineer that could help you. Structural engineers do buildings, etc. It would be more of a product/auto engineer that could help and I can pretty much guarantee that you will have virtually no chance of finding one that will be wiling to accept liability for helping verify your frame. The clacs. for it would be very difficult and time consuming to do. Frames aren't generally just straight beams like in a building that are relatively easy to calc. If this law was just about having a certified welder, it wouldn't be of much concern. But, the engineering part would be very difficult if not impossible in reality to have done.

 

Thank you! Get a grip people; Washington doesn't even have a state vehicle inspection program and they don't even lift the hood for the emissions test; all they care is if it passes, and it usually does. If one guy won't accept it, find another.

Man, turn off the talk radio before you go nuts and do something you'll regret.

 

O boy this has gotten ugly real quick , but tend to think not all rat rods are poorly built but when you look at one its easy to think its junk after all thats the look these guys are looking for . you can change the name but ya cant pick up a tu - rd from the clean end . when builders and collectors embrace these cars to be politically correct then as they say you die by the sword . 310 million people see crap on the street thats what they remember not the good work and this just makes our hobby a little harder to share and enjoy . I for one work every day building and restoring cars to the best of my ability and the last thing i want any where near my work is slacker junk . the worst part is the quality builders in wash state will pay the price and that sucks .

 

Mechanically great, esthetically a rat

But most of the yakkers on here look at the esthetics and make a judgement on the mechanics.

 

Thanks Steve Ray. My just say "NO" comment was in no way meant to condone poor workmanship. I am just wrapping up some suspension mods on my 56 Chevy. Some of the work the previous owner had done on my car was just plain dangerous! And it was done by a "PRO" shop, [no longer in business.] There is some lousy work out there that should NOT be on the road! The government cannot and should not police everything. but if you are not sure what you are building/driving is safe get some help, Vo/tech. welding courses, ask some of the guys who build the nice junk for input and or help. Car guys are the best, they like to help.
Have a nice week John

 

I hate the fact that I wrote the above statement, and worse that I agree with it. Why can't people just use a little common sense and consideration for other's safety, then we could just keep the government out of it and our lives in general.
Well we could just get rid of the irresponsible inconsiderate self important people in society, then we would not need the government babysitter.

 

Yes there is . Any rebuilt total, or assembled vehicle has to be inspected by the state patrol and gets a new VIN. In Spokane Co. there is only one inspector. There is no "next guy" to inspect it. None of this is up to your local DOL. They just process the paperwork, AFTER the inspection.

 

No, it's not- you just wanted to add your BS political view in where it's not appropriate. Here's where you can go:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/group.php?groupid=245

 

EASY FIX HERE !!

Use a REAL frame !

 

HAHA. There isn't a legit hot rod in this state!

 

haha its gonna be drivin weather they like it or not title or no title.
im buying a 1928/29 title and calling it an original.
but they are pretty tuff over here. i have a 68 dart gt and the title was ripped they wanted me to do a hole title search thing. it takes about a year to do and a few hundred bucks . so i just bought another title a 67 dart swinger title. and told em i made my 67 a 68 clone. my dads 40 chevy pick up had a water spot on it they wanted to make him go through that hole deal also.

 

yea rite lol.