A note about HP and Hyrogen. It does not do well with forced-induction such as turbos and blowers. trying to compress the gas with air creates high temps, as noted by JJ's issues with keeping the vehicle cool. But in a low-compression motor, it will run fine. Timing can be advanced to find the sweet spot. So, someday, my 8-to-1, 70 hp, flat-head 6 Studebaker will be KING!!! (LOL) But seriously, if it was so inefficient, why would GM, Ford, BMW and Honda have ICE- powered vehicles running around? And some are dual-fuel, being able to run on gasoline and Hydrogen. Just keep it in mind.
Speaking as one who nearly lost his life there in May of 1962, a smart ass answer like that is no excuse. I have tremendous respect for what you accomplished on that lake bed. It took balls to climb in that car. An achievement like that deserves better.
I can't see where taking a fuel like hydrogen and using it as a direct substitute for gasoline, alcohol or even nitromethane...and expecting similar results is being realistic at all. Those three liquid fuels have certain traits....burn duration, cooling, lubricating abilities, that a gas like hydrogen can't hope to duplicate. A high octain only shows its resistance to detonation, and says nothing of how quickly the fuel is actually consumed. A liquid with a high octane typically burns slower...but then you've got a solid that needs to see the complete conversion to gas. When you start with a gas, and end with a gas, that process is going to be much quicker. Read that time in terms of crankshaft degrees, and you're probably only seeing active usable combustion for a very small percentage of the power stroke. That right there is the difference between gas, alky and nitro. Each successive fuel provides a longer burn duration because of the volume of fuel that can be lit in a given size combustion chamber with a given amount of oxygen. Example, take equal amounts of gasoline and nitromethane and light them in identical combustion chambers, and the gasoline will produce more power. In fact, the nitro, probably won't even move the damn piston! BUT, use those fuels in the maximum volume that will sustain combustion, and the gasoline will give you, perhaps 30 degrees of power past TDC, while the nitro will continue producing work past the exhaust valve opening point, and all the way to the bottom of the stroke (And then out the pipe and 3 feet in the air). I spent a good deal of time looking at using a gas like hydrogen as an "ignitor" for a nitromethane engine. My idea was to use a stratified charge chamber,( Honda style) and let the gas's flame front take the place of the "wet" plugs we were using in the actual chamber. There's nothing in the rules that says you can't do it! To work with hydrogen, I think you've got to be really looking at a clean slate of paper as far as engine geometry and timing is concerned. I can see it being used really effectivly in a two stroke, or if economy isn't a concern...only raw power. in a rotory. Man! Imagine a cloud of this stuff being squeezed down in one huge combustion chamber and being lit from four different spots. It would be epic.
The idea of using hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is not a theory, vehicles such as BMW's are running around now on it. Theirs is a dual-system, still able to run on gasoline. Companies, such as the one I cited earlier, have conversions functioning well powered by hydrogen. Granted, it takes a lot of electricity to split hydrogen from water, but renewable energies are coming to fruition, as well as nuclear power reemerging. Vehicles running on a gaseous product have been around for years. I see a 1955 Pontiac at local cruises that runs on natural gas. It is not a problem to run the vehicle on the gas, it is a problem getting the gas to the vehicle. (And it is the most abundant gas in the universe!)
Bro, I have no doubt that a conventional engine can and will function just fine on hydrogen. I've run engines on hairspray! The point of this thread is land speed racing and making the most, (performance wise) of hydrogen in an internal combustion engine. My point is that in this context, I believe there are much more effective ways to use the fuel for maximum output.
Has anyone read the update to the original article in post 1? It's great that JJ built a fast car, but it looks like BMW still holds the record. After looking at it again, the comment by "Landspeed" Louise Ann Noeth doesn't look like an update to the article, just a comment. Still looks like BMW still holds the record though. Larry T http://www.autoweek.com/article/20090617/CARNEWS/906179969
They left out the best part of LSLs post....Follows... When contacted to explain the fraudulent claim, James responded with a short crude retort that reminded this writer that vulgarity is indeed the refuge of a destitute mind.
Yea, exactly. What you need is to get rid of the recip (gasp) and concetrate on a turbune. In the frst stage of the turbine, build it out of thousands of theromocouples. Each thermocouple being pourus, it would use the heat energy of the burning hydrogen, to separate the hydrogen and oxegen from a water tank. The second stage of the turbine would run an alternator to produce electricty. By using an electric drive motor, the whole unit could be retrofitted into almost any existing vehicle. (no, not your beloved hot rod) The whole shebang, could be built in a self contained unit, and you wouldn't have to "store" any large quantity of hydrogen...
Ok, let me see if I get this straight. A thread is started about an interesting project with a unique spin...and here on the HAMB, that sort of thing usually brings about all sorts of fascinating insight and enlightening discussion. BUT, because the individual responsible for this project also happens to be a TV personality, the thread becomes a fuckin zoo. Cool, I'm learning.
Looking forward to seeing this episode. Also a big shout out to Kurt Urban who was out there, I also see him in the first vid.
Ok, I just read it....the "record" is bogus. That point is established and taken. But, there is still technical merit to the idea of using new fuels in the art of going fast, and I would have expected a thread based on that idea to be pretty damn interesting. Shit like that is exactly what I cruise around message boards looking for.
Certainly a cool thing to do, and I'm jealous as hell, but it's not a record with out the proper sanctioning bodies' certification.
Besides BMW, Ben Jordan ran Hydrogen at Speedweek years ago. Maybe he still is at WoS. He didn't set a record either. SCTA had nothing to do with timing the run dispite what it looks like the press release implies. So it is still a very good first time on the lake bed and with such a new car. With the extensive dyno time on the motor I would think it's pretty well dialed in. I think the car needs more room than the lake bed allows. I hope it comes to the salt at a sancitioned meet where everybody can see it.
BMW still holds the record, it just so happens that Jesse James went FASTER, and I'm willing to bet, on a substantially smaller budget. The attention that this will bring to LSR can't hurt either. I could give a rats ass who holds the record, just the fact that JJ went out and did something that I would give my right nut to do is good enough for me. Am I jealous? You're damn right I am, and I would kick him in the 'nads if I thought it would get me a chance to run down the salt in ANYTHING that could achieve that speed As for his "personality", who cares? At least he's honest, and that's something deeply lacking everywhere. I also thought the guff he got before the thread was cleaned up was pretty funny too, but hey, I'm just an ass, what can I say...
BMW still has the record, but if JJ takes the car out to the salt. By by BMW. At least I think so. So is this a real Landspeed effort or "Reality" TV?
That's a fair question, how about it, legit effort or just TV posing? My money is on legit effort, provided they take the car back out and try to keep improving the concept
Time will tell if they are after the record or not. If it's a serious effort (and I hope it is) they'll dot the i's, cross the t's and go for it at a FIA sanctioned run. If it's TV, it's in the can. Larry T
Good point, I hadn't considered the averaging of the two runs. Hopefully we'll see more of this car and team
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