As I was preparing to trial fit my 8BA engine into the '30 Model A frame, I noticed that my water pump / engine mounts are a bit different than the setup shown in the Bishop / Tardel book. It seems that I have a set of '49 - '50 Mercury pumps (though not alas an actual Mercury engine) and these have the affect of lowering the front of the engine further than would be the case with the Ford pumps. The Mercury pumps put the engine's mounting surface 4.0" above the crankshaft center line (I am guessing from photos that the Ford pumps would put the distance at ~2.0" - 2.5"). Using standard 1.25" rubber mounts sitting on standard frame mounts would put the c/l of the crankshaft at ~ 2.75" below the underside of the top frame rail. This matches nicely with the '32 K-Member, which sets the output shaft at ~3.0" below the underside of the top rail. So if I were to slip a washer or two up front I could get the engine & transmission 'level' with the frame. But of course this won't work because of the water inputs to the pumps, which would want to live right where the Model A front member resides. I do not yet have a V8 radiator to use as a guide, so I am unsure exactly where the radiator connections will be, or exactly how high the front of the engine needs to be to mate up. so: 1) Can someone tell me what the distance from the crankshaft c/l to engine mount surface is when using Ford pumps? ( I think my short term solution will be to put spacers between the engine & rubber mounts to match the Ford pump setup.) 2) Can someone supply a picture of the rear of the radiator? (or is this stupid? are there lots of different radiators?) 3) How much tilt is acceptable at the rear mount before I need to shim? 4) What have I forgotten to think about? Thanks
Here is a pic of my radiator set up. I think the pick up truck style water pumps will put you where you need to be without using a spacer
Spacer is all you need. Anything you need to measure is heaped in my ba*****t...if you want, call me next week (next 4 days are insane) and I can measure away. On the front you basically want crank centerline where the Model A one was to align everything back through trans and torque tube. For now, stick in the stock A crossmember and run a rod from front center of crank to just over the member, where the guide for the hand crank would be. I can lend you the actual part if needed. As I said, the merc pumps work with a spacer BUT they are somewhat rare (in case of failure) and you might want to change. Be aware that ALL the late stuff is pretty long in front for a Model A...if you will be buying a cam, consider converting to '42 distrubutor and pumps to shorte engine AND get a good ignition cheap.
PS...look at the Neumeister A-V8 build article...he used the Merc stuff. Pictures show everything from the A rear end up through the front.
The late 49 thru 51 Mercury used "C" shaped spacers that set the pumps back up to approximately where the Ford truck pumps would normally be. The spacers are near 2 inches approximate. I've been looking at the Merc stuff for a while to see if it may be an advantage to working with an AV8. The fan pulley looks like it would work better than stock 8BA stuff plus the pump on the left is shorter than the pump on the right. I always figured that I'd extend the model A frame around 2 to 3 inches so my 51 merc motor would fit without modifications. It looks like that would be all it would take to make a perfect fit. It may sound like a lot of work but I always figured on extending a 34 wishbone and using the model A wishbone tail piece to get the caster closer anyway. Then move the crossmember about 2.5 inches forward and add a bit of frame chanell in there then weld on some new horns to get the flat look on the sides. They always have that little pooch out there where the fender brace attached that was hard to make look good. I was never planning on running fenders. Food for thought anyway.
Thank you all for the responses. This morning I noticed two things- 1) the center to center distance for the Mercury mounts is 21.0"; per Bishop & Tardel the Ford mounts are 20.0". Is this a typo, or are the Mercury mounts actually spaced differently? 2) I started to make engine mounts, used a 1.5" holesaw, then realized too late that it should have been 1.25". Bishop & Tardel say 1.5", so I think this really is a typo. I saw Dirtyest Devil at Rhinebeck, I described my issue, he thought I should have no trouble turning in my Mercury mounts as a core, and getting rebuilt Ford mounts, so that is my next move on Monday. I really want to get the front end mounted properly, get the K-member in place, then start to sort out the rear end. And yes, I do look forward to having a peek in Bruce's ba*****t. Bruce- was not able to find the Neumeister thread you mentioned, but we will talk. rotorwrench- Regarding the Mercury pumps, they appear to be the same width, and just have the pulleys offset.
Radio Flyer... you are more then welcome at my house or home to see how I layed out my AV8's in 32 frames or A frames. Each is always different with your select parts combo's. I tend to never to the same thing twice... so I'm always learning. I know what it is like to need info, with nobody locally to give it... half the fun, trial and error. If you need a V8 rad., I also have one or two to lend. I'm no expert, but I am critical of the over all look and procedure to make ones car seem timeless... not that all my stuff is, just learning as I go. Pm me. NJ needs to help each other out a little more... we have some good people in hiding. Customer wanted a boxed frame, I made these mounts out of some left over material... not the greatest, but still nicer then the kind you buy... I think. Frame is pinched, another customer request. In final ***embly, everything did come together with a nice flow and ample room. Sometimes you get lucky! Nothing fancy here... Good luck!
Oh ****... didn't realize it was you! Make your avatar connected to your hero of a grandfather... not that cute dog. Hahahaaa. Jersey's best kept secret! My Lancaster can help you with any info... I'm just a punk kid. Bruce Lancaster, NJ's hot rod tresure.
DD- Good to hear from you. I almost didn't recognize you yesterday: when I met you earlier this spring you were hairier, but then I saw the truck yesterday and it all popped into focus. My avatar is my dog Homer, named after my late father-in-law, sort of a joke I guess. I like your engine mounts, same thing would work for me, but I don't want to get locked into the 21" spacing, I think that might be unwise in the long run, what do you think? Yes, Bruce has been a huge help, and he is only a few miles away. You should both come to dinner one night, my girls and I are decent cooks, especially if you like ****y:. As for grand-dad, I need a little distance. He was tops at what he did, I am a total newbie at this stuff, want to just make my own way, see if I can find some middle path that makes some sense to me. BTW- did you see that very weird home built three wheeler in the car corral yesterday? I loved the woodwork, but the front half, the drive train was a bit offbeat to say the least. I forgot my camera, was hoping someone might post a photo of it here. I guess very little in this post actually relates to A-v8 engine mounts.
Neumeister...maybe spelling a bit off...is the A-V8 ch***is build in HRM 1954 or so. Left you a Xerox...has all the parts you have, Merc mounts through A rear end. All you need... Mercpumps do have slightly different span, taken care of in spacer design, stock ot homemade. Perfectly useable, but I would use truck pumps just to make replacements easy to find. I've got some stock spavers, quite likely about right. Don't think location from Tardel/Bishop is quite right for your application, you probably will need slightly farther aft to fit everything, especially with late flathead.
Bruce- Gotcha, I was looking online. I read the Neumeister article and another on A-V8s you left, things are clearer now. I have been fretting a bit about the way that the torque tube meets the transmission, it would seem that (in a stock setup) during acceleration a lot of the force pushing the car forward would be transmitted through this connection, and then through the flexible engine & transmission mounts to the car itself (The Don Francisco HRM article "A V8 in your MODEL A" mentions the idea of installing thrust rods between bell housing & frame to transfer loads more directly.). I don't know how much of the force would get transfered via the shackles and spring, probably not much if things are set up properly. I guess my fretting was really about how to set or preload this connection, which probably means getting some weight on the rear of the frame to get the torque tube into a neutral position, bolting up the torque ball joint and setting the k-member empirically based on that. And maybe this is a moot point, since Neumeister ends up splitting the rear bones due to clearance issues, and this provides a means of getting some adjustment for alignment, and transfering the loads directly to the frame rails. So I am probably making a mountain out of a molehill. BTW I started mocking this up this morning, and the engine will sit back just about 1.5" further than the B & T setup. Now I will go back, Z the rear that standard small bit, weld things up in the rear, move forward and weld in the K member, then new front engine mounts (I like DD's design) at 20" spacing, and some sort of adjusto-spacers for now.
Ford used small engine radius rods (Most to center crossmember, some to front crossmember) 1932--41, ridgid rear mount '42-8. There are also simple ways to stabilize the vertical bolt on early Ford biscuits, commercial and homemade. This stuff is pretty easy, can be figgeredout at mockup time or stolen directly from '32 parts bin if you like expensive solutions... Your block has no provision for early rods, but has a pair of bellhousing bolts in exact same place that are frequently adapted to stock Ford swaps. Note that engine placement (muddled here by forward protrusions on late engine) is based on whatever is your bedrock; Bishop-Tardell base theirs on keeping '32 wishbone setup entirely stock, Neumeister based his on torque tube. Both are entirely reasonable ways, I think stock TT length is the natural way in terms of relatively unsophisticated swap (think teenager in 1952) because it does not require machinest. Bishop T way ***umes longer and more sophisticated/funded build. I don't see any difference in quality of product either way...engine difference is pretty small, farther back better for weight/worse for protecting stock firewall. You are using '32 member, and so far have no wishbone...so get a wishbone that is in the ball park and build its rear mount from two stock caps and an altered floor area in the crossmember.
This may help, I have a 8BA in a 30 coupe the center of the mount hole is 3.25 inches rearward of the line marked at the cross member in the pic below (disregard the 3.5 note the old mounts had huge holes to allow for adjustment I guess)anyway at 3.25 the motor is as far back as it can be without m***aging the firewall. Note also Im not using the stock fuel pump which would probably hit the firewall now. Im also not running the mechanical fan. I hope maybe this helps
Oh man... I'm just glancing at all this... but you have to do a mechanical fan, why try and do it 90% traditional and then cut corners. Eletric fans just dont look right, and mechanical fans work perfect! There is plenty of room, you just need to stretch frame to appropriate length without making it too long like a rat rod. 103" is A, 106" is 32, and 110" is the limit. With an 110" wheelbase, you can achieve the traditional look, and fit all you old time goodies. Come see me, I'm no expert by any means....just a schlubbb. I wanna hear more stories bout your Grandpa... bring your Dad too. Got some neat stuff in the works, maybe you can ***ist. Hope all is well... don't come this weekend, gone surfing!
I'm using the Bishop / Tardel numbers on my frame. Haven't set the mounts in place yet, but the book says it's a 2x3 tubing mount, set with the front edge of the mount 3" back from the radiator mount hole in the crossmember. This would put the motor mount hole 4-1/2" back from the radiator hole. This photo looks further back than that, and there doesn't look to be much room between the water pump and the radiator -- that hose is pretty short. Having the motor further forward wouldn't seem doable. Anyone got a shot of the motor in place with the Bishop Tardel locations? Pete
It really depends on what motor 42-48, or 49 and later...............along with which tranmission you are going to run. I think the Mike/Vern book is using a 42/48 motor and 39 trans with enclosed driveline. When I tried to put mine this close I didn't have enough room infront of the motor........... so I placed mine 6.125" from the center of the radiator hole to the center of my motor mount hole. Or, my mount is 4.75" from the center of the radiator hole to the front of edge of my motor mount. Ofco**** I am running an 8BA with C4 trans and open driveline. But I have always believed as have other people, that this measurement is too short and should be longer.......................in my case it is, and because I have Joe Abbin's blower manifold I had to recess my firewall about 1.5" (see the picture) for it to fit and bend my oil breather tube (because I am not running a mechanical fuel pump) at a 35 degree angle forward. Whatever you do, put the engine and trans in place, then put the cowl/firewall in place...... then and only then put the mounts in place. I always just tack them in and if I need to move them a little I can.......................IMHO It worked for me.
I just measured my motor mount hole from the radiator mount hole it looks to be 6 3/8 inches center to center. As for the fan I have room for a fan I just dont run one (when I can locate the generator, brackets and parts needed to run one with my intake I'll put it on there) and unless I get stuck for a fairly long time in traffic it doesnt run hot You can kinda see in this picture there really is no way to put the motor any farther back without modifying the firewall but it works out well I used the B/T book for alot of ideas but a couple things didnt seem to work out correctly on mine (typos on measurement I think). Mock up everything to be sure.
Lots of good stuff here. I just spent a happy Friday out in the garage welding in the K-member and the front mounts. I am pretty well committed to a 6.375" setback at this point, same measurement as Russco. I will have to cut the firewall, but it was pretty butchered up anyway, and besides I have channeled the body 3.0" (worked a bit on that last winter while still gathering some of the drive train parts). Time to start thinking about the front suspension, I will sort out what I have, and let you all know. Thanks for all the photos and ideas, it really helped to get me to jump in and finalize some of this stuff. Let me see about getting some pictures in here.
Yesterday I built a front wishbone out of the stock Model A (used the ball joint) plus several odds and ends from the s**** pile. It is not the most beautiful thing, but it fits. I don't have the height of anything really set, so although I was trying for 8 degrees of camber, it could all change. Today I put the car together to the point where it rolls for the first time (no steering or brakes) (I got a nice set of spoke wheels with nearly new bias ply tires from 1oldrat and they look great) and I am looking at the next steps- 1) Lower the back end maybe couple 2 more inches- reverse the eyelets, trim the spring ends, and maybe remove another leaf (does seem awful stiff back there). 2) Lower the front- send out the axle to be dropped( probably ask HAMB member "296 V8" to do the work), reverse the eyelets, shape the ends, etc. 3) Steering- I have the Model A knuckles, but there is a big clearance issue with the wishbones, guess I will do some reading on this subject. And yeah, the Model A steering box just isn't gonna fit anywhere at all as far as I can see. 4) firewall clearance- I will be butchering this up to fit. wish I was a better welder though. Also need to finish rebuilding the rotted base of the cowl. And etc etc etc.
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