Death Wobble - speedway tie rod may be suspect

I am giving you credit.

Trouble is, you're there and I'm here.

Just putting out stuff that may have been overlooked.


I'm just amazed at a bowing tie rod.

I'd yank the dang thing, clamp it in a big vise and give it a pull.
If it flexes, keep bending it back and forth and when it breaks take a look to see if for some reason it's very thin in the center.

I am interested in what you find.

And moreso, interested in your safety....

 

Thanks man! I appreciate your help too. I can't tell you how bad I'd like to have this resolved! I have a new engine that I want to put in and this is not letting me do it!


Thanks for the input too Rex - that sounds like a similar problem and fix.

 

I fought the same problem for the last few months. Low speeds, small bump...wobble that will make you pucker. The first time it happened I put it up on the curb and damn near t-boned a minivan parked in a driveway. I went through every part checking one by one. Rebuilt the steering box, redid the steering box mount. Changed out all the heims. Started adjusting toe. Everyone said I needed 1/8" to 3/16" toe in. Set it and drove it. Re-set it and drove it gave it 1/4" toe in and drove it...gave it 0" and drove it. I finally ended up with 1/4" toe out and she rides like a new car. I can steer with my pinky.

I have the tie rod in front and above the axle and can flex it with my foot. I really dont think that is the problem. Maybe a piece of the problem but not the only piece.

 

Just finished reading the whole damn thread! The setup above puts the tie rod in tension, especially with toe out and you could probably get it to work with a piece of cable for a tie rod! At least as far as straight ahead is concerned. Your rear mounted tie rod is in compression as the tires try to toe out ffrom positive offset.
I've experienced this nasty phenomenom a couple of times over the years.
First on a stock Model A with a worn out front end. If you greased it you couldn't drive it!
Much later I had a '73 GMC 4X4, some lift, 35" bias ply nylon tires which bumped like Hell till they got hot and went round.
With low tire pressure and those big flabby tires, it was quite an experience when death wobble started! A replacement of OEM with a new steering damper fixed it.
Josh, if you're positive there's no lost motion anywhere in the suspension, kingpins, or steering, then seems to me a tire with a stiffer sidewall might help.
But then again, you said extreme low pressure stops the wobble. So maybe the radials, which usually have more flex, might help.
Dave

 

Sounds like you're getting pretty frustrated over there... I would double check everything and make sure it's all tight (even though it sounds like you've already triple checked everything). I'd also check how far the threads are in on all of the rod ends, you want at least half of the threads to be threaded in...

Lastly I'd set the toe in/out to zero (so that the tires are straight on) and take it for a ride, then move then in an 1/8 and take it for a ride, then another 1/8 and see if that works... Then try an 1/8 out and so forth.

Could you take a picture of your front end and post it up? There might be something off that you're just over looking cause you're burnt out from staring at it... It happens.

Did you have to drop or modify your steering arms in any way? Maybe the ends aren't straight?

 

ha ha - it's not so bad. At least I found something I think may be a problem. I will try the toe changes for sure too. A buddy of mine has been telling me to go to toe out for some time now. I keep changing other little things and never get to that. I hope that does it. The tie rod ends are screwed in at least 85% of the way. The steering arm is not modified. The drag link is parallel with the tie rod. I do have a pan hard bar in the front. I'll check everything over again.

Thanks everbody.

Dave - I have been thinking the same about the tires. Those M&H are awefull balloon like.

 

Did it start after you put the M&Hs on the front?

 

I went to a little toe out (about 3/16) and added a SoCal damper and the car went from slow and sloppy to 80 and one handed! I am running firestone bias plies on wheel vintiques at 20 psi on all 4 corners. Made a world of difference.

 

I think he said he's switched out tires a couple of times now, the M&H issue was mentioned before -

 

No, it did it with the Firestone 450-16's too. I was hoping the M&H would help being known round or rounder vs. the Firestone's everyone said needed to be shaved.

 

wow! I think I have followed all of this,,,one thing sticks in my mind, when you pull the wheels together, the bar raises, as it might with enough force,,,that is compression bending,,BUT, if the tie rod is truly dead straight in tension there should be NO movement. If it has a slight bend, you are straightening it. This might be the the osillation source. As has been said by several, it may be a "perfect storm" situation. I tend to think a dampener would be a good idea regardless, hope you find the cure.

 

Holy Smokes! Ispent the last hour reading all of this and am very thankful for all the input. I to oam fighting some death wobble. Mine got so bad it bent the tie rod, drag link and left hairpin. I think my problem might lie in the kingpins, and the undersized tubes. they are all 3/4 od tubes. Soon they will be 7/8 od. I finally found that my kingpins need some shims. A lot of shims! should have it all back together this weekend. I noticed that when I checked my alignment it was 1 inch toed in. I'm surprised that it would drive anywhere. when I changed it to 1/8 in, it drove great up to about 75 when all hell broke loose. When I get my new rods built this week and set it all back up, I'm going to use the 1/8 toe in 3 to 5 degrees of caster? lean back. I'll let ya'll know how it worked.

 

I increased the strenght of my speedway draglink by cutting another tube with higher wallthickness and the inner diameter of the same size like the outer diameter of the speedway link. Drilled about 20 7mm holes in it, slipped it over the speedway link and closed the holes with welding spots. Grinded the spots, so they are not visible..... Its very strong. I ll try the pushing test in the next few days, see what happens.
I can take pictures, if You want....

 

Sorry, didnt see, that BloodyKnuckles had the same idea, yeah sleeving is the word I was searching for....

 

Great- how thick was your sleeve tube - I found a 4130 steel tube on Mcmaster.com today that had a .89 iD and 1.125 od I was thinking about using.

 

Here's a place that will be quite a bit cheaper than McMaster (God love 'em, but they are proud as hell of their raw materials):

http://www.speedymetals.com/pc-3454-8242-1-14-od-x-188-wall-dom-steel-tube.aspx

I can vouch for them, done business with them several times without any issues.

1.25" OD, 0.875" ID (0.1875" Wall) 1020 DOM Steel Tube

Should give you a nice slip fit. You'll probably need to sand the OD of your existing tube slightly, or do a differential heated fit to get them together. Stick the tie rod in the freezer for a couple of hours, and then heat the sleeve to ~140 degs F. Just slip the hot one over the cold one and hold them in the right place for about a minute.

Make sure you get them lined up how you want them very quickly, because you don't have a lot of time, and you only get the one chance at it.

On the up side, it'll stay put very well while you weld it up.

 

first of all the tire rod end must not flex so what is flexing the tube ??this i have found on many street rods and light trucks .. so what i used to have done was have a sleve put over the tire rod sleve to give it strength , and it just seamed to do the trick .188 wall is just about right for wall thickness and set the toe at about 1/32 to 1/16 u should roll down the road just fine [ thats my 2 cents worth ]

 

Your wheels could be too far out .Try different offset rim. I know you said developed problem Just throwing out ideas .Ackerman theory.

 

A few things I learned about chassis work. Change one thing & test. Don't change several things at one time. See if that one change made the problem better or worse. Try the easiest & cheapest things first. Write the changes down in a notebook.

Did the problem develop due to wear ? When you changed a part(s)? Crashed or bent something? That tie rod worked before didn't it ? The most important tool is your brain. I'm sure you will figure it out.

 

Hi Buddy, don't buy that Speedway crap parts!!!!!
Make your own tie rod using german made seamless tube !!!!!
I always do that and never had a problem!
Michel mit der langen Sichel!

 

Hey Mickey, I improved it with german engineering by sleeving it with a german seamless tube, so to say, only the threads of the link are from speedway/chinese junk......
Buddy mit der großen Flathead-Sammlung.))))

@Tudor: I ll measure that out for You, but on the next weekend.

 

Well I've bin building complete chassis professionally since 1978 , all the steel tubing used in front 4 bars , tie rod and drag links is 7/8" OD x 7 gauge cold drawn seamless ( CDS )
never ever had a problem

Im totally shocked you can bend the tie rod by pulling in the wheels

speed wobbles in the old days were generally caused by out of balance rotating mass , or axle caster

it scares the shit outta me , the crap being made today...................

cheers Steve in Oz

 

Thanks - Yes - Mcmaster is high for sure. They are fast, but high. I will check them out.

 

Fwiw, you can order in a stick of 7/8" x .156 wall DOM tubing from most any metal supply place.

Comes in 18' sticks sometimes.

Shouldn't be too expensive, even with todays high steel prices.


If you're running 5/8" Heims tapping it is easy since RH taps are readily available and LH taps not difficult to find.

11/16-18 threads are generally a Ford specific tap and you can get RH and LH taps from many places including Speedway.
I'd make sure Speedway is not supplying Chinese taps.

Drilling to tap size, do it in a lathe or figure out a way to do it in a drill press.
Don't try drilling it by hand, so little material comes off, the drill grabs the tubing and there's a good chance you'll break a wrist or otherwise injure yourself.

I'm guessing the plan is to replace the tie rod and then do the alignment stuff.


Another one to check for is out of round tires.
Easy to do with the car jacked up and a pointer of some kind taped to a floor stand.
Spin the wheel by hand and note out of round - or wheel wobble - as shown by the pointer.


A question and not an insult.
When you're pulling and pushing on the wheels are you going from center to full left or full right?
Or from full left to full right or the reverse?

When you do the tie rod will rise and fall a bit due to caster and it's possible to get fooled.


I'm curious too if the tie rod lock nuts you're using on the tie rod are 'jam' nuts or regular thickness?
(Jam nuts are the narrow nuts that are about half thickness of regular nuts.)

An overly thick nut won't allow the Heim - or tie rod end - threads to seat as deep as they should.

Got a hot rod pal nearby?
Another set of eyes on the problem may help.


Regardless, an interesting problem and there's a lot of guys on here curious to see what the fix is.

Including me....

 

C9- When I am flexing the tie rod the wheels are centered. The nuts are the jam nuts. The heims are seated very deeply. I had to trim the end of the tie rod 1/4" to get the toe in I needed. Therefore the heims are almost all the way threaded in with the nut and a 1/8" of threads sticking out.

The tires do have a bit of a bump or what appears to be out of roundness in them when you spin them. I'd guess an 1/8" or so. These M&H bias ply front runners are better than the 450-16 firestones in that regard.

I will most likely sleeve the rod I have. I am also planning to try a little more neutral toe - then to zero then toe out to see if that has effect. I am going out of town and will havef to work on it next week.

I do have an old hot rod buddy who is scratching his head along with me. He has been telling me to go to toe out and I think that is in order. We spent a couple hours debating things Friday and Sunday afternoon.

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again for the time.

 

If you need a custom length bar, we have the technology

This is a great thread for troubleshooting. A friend just fixed his death wobble with a set of Bilstien shocks. Have you checked the shocks?

 

You better get that thing fixed before the last weekend in September!!
I'll probably get to see the rear end of it anyway.
My T was doing this untill I changed the toe in.
Robert

 

Sooooo..where are you at with this issue Tudor?

 

all my steering stuff is from Speedway, I never had any problems. Guess it has to be that blower...my engine don't have the horse power to make a wobble. I'll swap you a really nice cast iron two barrel intake for that damn blower , just to help a friend out .

 

REJ - I'll be there with her Can't wait to see ya man.

Von- I have been out of town, it is still on the jack stands. I need to put her the rest of the way back together and test some new toe settings.

OnlyChevrolets - that's great. How flexible is your tie rod if you reach down and wiggle it in the center? Is your tie rod in front of or behind your axle? The blower is in the mail. Look for the envelope marked FRAGEEEELAAAAAY

Thanks Welder Series! I may be in touch. the final configuration of things have yet to develop. I have installed new shocks Pro 1 type.