Packard straight 8s, perf mods, let's talk about it

It's no secret to many that I'm a Pacakrd guy. Most of my time with em is in restoration but I find myself now with 2 examples that have arguably the best Packard engine ever, the 356ci straight 8 rated at 160 (41) and 165 (47) HP. These beasts have 9 main bearings, hydraulic lifters, 2bbl carbs and angle-set valves. While heavy (motor and trans is 1000lbs!) they run whisper quiet and haul freeway speeds of 70+ with no worries in big cars. I do have located an Edmunds dual carb get-up and have a few other ideas but I'd like to know who's done what and how it worked out. The 327s from later cars are no slouch either. I also know compression increases don't come easy due to the angle-set valves. So how 'bout it? What has worked and what were the gains? I recall a streamliner (Nick Arias?) at Bonneville in 91 that ran a Packard straight 8 and it had trouble with the mains (a 5 main example), but that's all. HRLC's pic of the roadster at B'ville with a Packard in it got me all fired up on this again. One last note, my intent will be that other than the intake the outward look of one (or both) of these will be focused on stock OEM.

Thanks in advance and I look forward to some ideas/stories.

 

one of my favorite youtube videos is the roadster with the paxton supercharged packard straight 8 the whine from that beast is wild hope theres lots of response to this thread because i dig straight 8 engines also

 

Well, I had a long talk with the guy out of SLC with this ( see photos )and he has a lot of upgrades on his 327 straight 8 Packard in his modified. For upgrade's he had a Alum. head , new Isky cam, new 4 carb set up, McCulloch Supercharger, as well as a lakes pipe.

This thing is cool!


CBB

 

The guy from SLC is "HOT ROD PACKARD" from the ASSHOLE GARAGE. He's right here on the H.A.M.B. He does some of the most gorgeous machine work you'll ever see, including the machine work on the inside and the outside of that Packard block. DD

 

Well, I am very jealous because my next rod project will use a flathead straight eight engine and the nine-bearing Packard motor is right at the top of my list (others being considered are Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Hudson and Chrysler).

I will not be after ultimate power like you so I can't help you out on the details of what to do. But you have my moral support and I will be watching this thread with interest.

 

Now, that's what a motor should look like!

 

Never done this and never will. So speaking from the position of someone who knows nothing of what he speaks, the good thing about Packard and Chrysler inline eights is they have lots of cubic inches compaired to other engines of like age. Hudsons, Oldsmobiles, and Pontiacs only have the weight and length. For that reason if I was doing something like this, and I'm not, I would go with the Pack or Chrysler.

 

That's good advice. Hadn't thought of it that way - was mostly thinking about other things in terms of which one I end up going with.

 

I have the chrysler straight 8 and that is just my intention to build it with performance enhancements , turbos and fuel injection. Nothing wrong with a flattie if you do your home work in fact I think they look prettier than an overhead in some cases. Rob

 

Agreed

 

I've always had the idea (I'm mostly talking out of my rear here) of mounting two Graham blowers in tandem along the left side of a Packard straight 8. The blowers turn up on eBay all the time and are not huge money. The only tricky part is machining the back of the first blower's case to attach the drive for the second blower. The bigger Packard engine is about 50% larger then the Graham cube wise.

 

Well my 1st post said I had some ideas so here goes...

I think compression needs to be raised to get the energy out of today's fuel. It's way better than the old stuff. That might mean custom pistons because milling the head will interfere with the valves.

Porting the manifolds and block for best match and flow. Intake manifold a tick smaller than the port, exhaust a bit larger than the port, thinking this will prevent a measure of reversion that a long stroke beasty like these must suffer at certain RPM ranges.

Once again refering to the valve/head arragement, I think a cam with more duration could be used (just a lil more) to take advantage of the Edmunds intake.

Lightened rotating assembly, which will be more effectively handled by a lighter flywheel and maybe the custom pistons. Follow that with a perfect balance of the crank flywheel and damper, and I mean a dead on zero balance job. I've had a few race bretheren in my day say that perfect doesn't matter, I disagree (think torsional twist and related valvetrain instability).

What we have going for us with these 356 engines is metallurgy, displacement, stroke (4 5/8!) and original build quality. Many Packard enthusiasts become such when they dig in and see the difference. Too many to list since it relates to most any era. What we have against us is weight, expense and rarity. These were in the 160s and 180s prewar, and the Super and Custom Super Clippers postwar. I think it surfaced again in 54 for the Carribean and I can't say for sure how many models used em from 48 on and when it was dropped until the 54 return. Lifters are a bit costly to rebuild and impossible to find also.

I brought up the streamliner from 91 hoping some info would come up. Maybe I'll dig around some.

 

I have never been inside one of these so please excuse this potentially naive question: is it feasible to retrofit late model (SBC, SBF, whatever) hydraulic lifters?

 

I think I read somewhere that some of the Packard straight 8's had hydraulic lifters, but don't quote me on that.Also go to Egge Engineering they have new parts for early engines. Thats it , take care . Rob.

 

The roadster with the Packard motor in the picture was my favorite street rod on the salt. People walked right by a blue ultra high dollar hemi powered 32 at the Nugget to look at it

 

This is my father's 288 Packard that he put together several years ago. He built the headers and intake manifolds. The carbs in the photo aren't on it anymore, he's currently running it with (i believe) Carter 1-barrels. He adapted an HEI distributor for it and built an adapter plate to attach a chevy bellhousing and 4spd transmission to it. It isn't real quick off the line, but once he gets it going it runs pretty good.

 

We have done a couple of the two 2-barrel setups. Customer had custom pistons made to increase compression. He was quite please with the outcome on both engines. I don't know if he made other mods at the same time or not.

Jon.

 

The lifter bore is small. Pretty unique setup and I don't know about conversions bit I'll look inside one tomorrow and measure it.

Yes, know all about Egge. Decent stuff for decades, but a no go on new lifters. There is a company making new internal parts and I'm told be ready to spend...

Beemer that's bitchin. Not what my ultimate plan is but still bitchin.

You can't fuckin tease me like that! Details! Details! Seriously I'm intrigued with the details on the pistons.

 

I'm a Hudson man, so there is my bias.

However, any flathead inline gets my attention. Big Ol' Packards get my attention Big Time. I've looked at them with envy, but never worked on one.

To the guy thinking about a Hudson 8, don't go that route. They are not the engines the later Hornet-type engines were. Babbit bearings and splash oiled - not the stuff of a long lived hot rod. I'd like to build one myself, but the money and time to re-design the crank bearings and oiling system is not within my capacity at present.

I'd like to know more about the "angled valves" in the subject Packard 8. I'd also like to know more about the Packard lifters. We've cross-bred alot of lifters in the past. Including Harley-type rollers in flathead inlines. I'm not Packard educated, but you never know when something may be similiar enough to be made work. For example, the Hudson 8 did have factory hydraulic roller lifters (which won't work in the 6's). There is some strange stuff out here in the orphanage - you never know what may work, till you ask.

Hud

 

Ah what a tangled web we weave with these inline eights , if there were no challange it would be no fun.Also a good sense of humour is good too , all be it bent like an iron bar over Curly's head... nuk nuk nuk. Rob

 

http://www.packardinfo.com/xoops/html/downloads/partslist4147/1941-47 Parts Book_Engine.pdf

Here's a link to a PDF scan of the valve arrangement. Scroll down and find CLipper Master Parts Book. Click that and look at the 'engine' page. Go to page 8 in the PDF file. Much like a flathead that's been 'relieved' to assist flow on the outside of the valve, but better in the sense that the angle allows more flow area when the valve is open. It's not the only thing that makes these so special and powerful but it's a great start considering the displacement.

 

Hello, going to be watcing your post. We own a few Packard's too 1934 -1956 but 41's are my choice. jerry.ashley@dhhs.nc.gov for pix. Take Care, ja

 

Thanks,

Very interesting, that's similiar to the Hudson Super Six arrangement. 7.5* incline towards the cylinder. Hudson made a mistake in one sense, brilliant in another. They reduced the "no man's land" between the cylinder and the valve as much as possible. So much so, that the cylinder and intake valve bowl are siamesed - no water passage between them. I see the Packard didn't go that far and kept some water between them.

I don't have a good picture showing the angle of the valves, but I do of how close the valves are to the actual cylinder. These are stock valve diameters.


Probably wise Packard kept the water passage, I'll bet there aren't as many cracked Packards as Hudsons. I'm liking the Packard block and layout - Alot!

I don't see anything all that unique about your lifters from the parts manual. If you can get some measurements, I'll check them against the flatty mopars. Flathead mopars are a drop-in for the Hudson without any need for block modification. They have larger diameter "feet" that helps your cam duration a little, and taller than the stock Hudson. We really only use the mopar lifter when going to the larger valves (because we order the valves with shorter stems). The Mopar lifters are still manufactured new, so if you can use/adapt them - your lifter problem will be fixed.

One great thing about flathead inlines, we can cross-pollinate alot. Brand doesn't matter as much as the measurement and layout.

Hud

 

Ok, Ok, Packard lifers are this.
The large head tappet is a dodge 216 .008 over sized. Stock is .622 for the packard and the dodge but the over sized is .630
I used the over sized lifter and reamed the lifter bore to fit.



There are a lot of pictures of the build of the blown Packard in my albums. Not many are with descriptions but if you know what your looking at its all good. I dont have the latest pics of the engine stuff on there yet as time has been ahort but will get them up soon.

 

Yep, thought so.

From here, I think I'll just lurk this thread. Lifter cross-compatibility was probably the only constructive thing I could have contributed.

I've subscribed to it though - so I'll be reading/watching how this goes. I'll be watching for the camshaft discussions.

Best of luck.

Hud

 

ANY 34 Packard gets my attention. The best they ever did in that era and I'm certainly not in a minority that thinks so. Tell us more. Have you ever driven anything like it? Of course not. Something so big that drives so easy. And yes the 41s are like no other. Did you know that the 41 Packard 160 (the 356 on topic here) was the fastest American production car available? Read that in the Oct 1940 MoToR annual. Kool shit fellas, too kool.

Hot Rod Packard, the lifter info is spectacular. Thanks a bunch. We might need to talk. I'll PM ya when I get some things sorted.

 

They have larger diameter "feet" that helps your cam duration a little

This keeps repeating, but it's not correct.
A larger roller tappet stretches the events out slightly, increases the rate of lift a bit more, no effect on lift.
A larger flat tappet (with the same 50" crown etc. radius on the bottom) simply overhangs the lobe more - it doesn't do anything because the lobe never touches it.
Why were they used? Because it allows a hotter cam to be used, where the lobe would catch the edge of the small lifter - but it's the cam that's different, the tappet width is just safety. Rough calculation: the maximum velocity of a flat tappet cam = (tappet diameter - .040”)/114.6.

 

Hot Rod Packard, Iam learning as I go with my 1941 chrysler straight 8 and the info you have provided is very helpful towards my build. By the way it is obvious that pictures don't do your car justice,a beautiful piece of work and engineering.Living the dream, Rob.

 

Panic's got it right... I see a lot of misconceptions on lifter size and its effects.

 

you know, i haden't a clue as to what i was going to do with the packard straifht 8 block i was given ... and now i do.. i don't know what size it is yet , it's just the bare block, clean and shiny, the former owner said it came from packard limo ... so
i have no friggin clue.. where the hell do i get parts for this beast and where do i get
info on it??