Hot Rods 308 Hudson 6 for Early RODS ???

No, I'm not rubbing it in. When I quit Hudsoning over the politics of the HET Club years ago, I gave the 7X setup to my K-Gap business partner for his birthday present.

I don't rub anything in you guy's faces. All my Hudson cars are gone and all the parts are gone. All I've got is pictures and memories and I'm doing my best to share.

And I agree, for hot rodding, headers would be FAR more effective but for NASCAR stock or in a street cruiser, a 7X and twice pipes out the back is way cool.

 

Stilloutthere I was just kidding. Little jealous I have never been able to get a hold of one. Awsome to see that exhaust!
Dave Hitch

 

All he discussion about vibration dampeners got me thinking about something I read (which came as a surprise to me) back when I first got on the HAMB back in January or February.

The writer contended that at least SOME of the early Dodge Hemis did NOT use a dampener and, on occasion, had cranks break.

As stated, this was surpriisng to me, since Chrysler & DeSoto were using them. But MAYBE Dodge engineers didn't foresee MOST drivers generating the kind of rpms necessry to cause a problem (?).

Anyway, Dodge supposedly remedied the matter after a couple of model years. But Hemi guys were advocating RETRO-fitting dampeners during a rebuild of those early Dodges.

Confirm? Dismiss? Any other comments at all? THX!

 

LoBuxRod talking about his 265 project also reminded me of an early thread I read "back THEN" in the beginning (after I reached 500 posts, the HAMB apparently deleted any posts above 500, SO I can't go back & CHECK details).

Anyway, a fella in Australia spoke of how THEY really took off with this engine down under, after the U.S. went V-8 crazy. He said, one big thing that was done was to fit a Hemi head to the 265, makig it (his words) a "Chevy killer." I don't recall seeing any pix of one of these 265 "Hemis" dis***embled.

Anybody have any more tech details about this motor's inner workings OR PHOTOS??? THANKS!

 

actually thought making a car stiffer EQUALED p***enger/driver SAFETY

And it still works, if the driver is properly restrained - but this means prevented from "reaching" anything inside like the dash, steering wheel, side window, etc. If the occupants are "loose", nothing really works.

 

except the front three and rear three cylinders were internally seperated with a center divider and then a collector elbow kept the exhaust split to start out in two pipes. The rules then stated that a six cylinder car could not run twice pipes past the rear axle so Hudson welded up a beautifully blended head pipe to bring these two pipes into one.

This is extremely important - the firing order + the individual ports + complete separation of front and rear cylinder groups for as long as possible on the Hudson get great efficiency from this design - it's the same thing Jaguar used at the same time on the XK120 motor.

dynamicly balanced with bobweights that are EXACTLY the weight of the rod/piston on that throw.

This is excellent advice. The theoretical perfect balance of an L6 at 120° firing order cannot overcome the dynamic problem of not having each counterweight exactly opposite each bore centerline (there's just no way to do this), so the counterweights should be as "localized" as possible rather than averaged out over all weights.

The flame speed vs. piston speed problem does exist, but I'm not sure how it applies here. The Harley KH flathead engine (4-9/16" stroke) did pretty well at 6,500 RPM, which is almost 5,000 f/m. Math: stroke × revs ÷ 6 = feet per minute. Even 6,000 for the 308 is only 4,500 f/m, and very conservative accel at 94,500 f/s/s. 5.00" stroke (same rod) at 5,500 is 4,583 f/m and better accel at 90,400 f/s/s.

fabricate a triple WGD-type manifold

My 1st choice for a "period" intake system would be 6 carburetors to make maximum advantage of the individual ports (it allows resonance tuning at a specific RPM, although the runners would have to be very long), and although I have no historical references I'm sure it was done. The next best (and certainly common) is 3 big SUs each supply adjacent cylinder pairs - just like the big British L6 engines. Yes, the pairs don't all have regular firing intervals but it's known to work.

As to crank stiffness: an immediate problem is low journal overlap. Any stroke increase makes this much worse, especially if done by eccentric grinding to a smaller rod journal.
Math: (main journal + rod journal - stroke length) ÷ 2 = journal overlap. Positive numbers are generally less than 3/4", zero is bad, negative numbers are very bad.
Example: (I don't know the 308 main journal size)
3.000" main + 2.125" rod + 4.500" stroke is .3125" (not bad).
Same crank stroked to 5.00" (same journals) is .0625" (terrible).
A simple (but $$) way to increase the stroke and stiffness simultaneously is to weld the rod journals to a larger common size like late RB hemi (2.375") or Ford 385 (2.500") and use an RB or 460 rod which is available in many lengths.
If using offset only you get the diametric difference as stroke increase.
Math: Ford rod allows up to 3/8" stroke increase (2.500" - 2.125").
If you also undercut the original low side you get more, but be careful of striking the oil p***age!
5.00" stroke using Ford 460 rod is .250" - worse than stock but far better than the original rod.
A guess at deck height: if the original piston is 2" compression distance, a 4.500" stroke + 8.115"(?) rod is 12.365". If stroking to 5.00" using a 1.50" piston (still fairly strong) the rod needs to be about 8.365".
As long as overlap can be maintained, the stroke can be even longer without excessive crank bending but the biggest automotive rod journal I know of is the MEL at 2.600", and it's not long enough. The limit may be where the rod beam must transect a water p***age at the bottom of the cylinder.

As to exhaust temp problems:
1. don't install an exhaust seat insert
2. don't enlarge the valve - open it sooner instead
3. very wide seat (.150") = maximum heat transfer
4. very thick margin to increase m***
5. don't shorten the guide or remove metal from the boss except cleanup
6. thermal barrier coating inside the port, and on the chamber side of the valve head
7. make sure the entire seat area on the deck is fully exposed immediately the valve lifts (not "sunk")

 

Two different engines. Mopar made a 265 flathead, which is kinda rare. The chevy killer is not a hemi converted 265 flathead.

There was, much later, a 265 Aussie made OHV six cylinder which is known as a "hemi". In all actuality is more like a "poly". Which if we compare it to the new hemi, it be more like a hemi. This engine is the chevy killer. What a tangled web of hemi-dom. The Aussie "hemi-6" came out in a factory trim option at 300hp.

Hud

 

I still cant believe there is a 10 page post on Hudson's. This is great. For what it is worth my 49 has a 54 308 in it that is .60 over with a 311040 regrind and twin h with a set of old clifford headers and runs hard. This combo with a stick overdrive and a 4.09 rear seems perfect to me. I've broken two trannies and drove over 1500 miles without second gear till I found another gear set. My dad's buddy has a 51 that is destroked with a 232 crank and big valves and it runs strong as well. I just dont like the thought of giving up cubic inches unless your racing in a certain cl***. Keep the post going....

 

Thanks for clearing that UP Hudsonator! The Ausie Hemi/Poly was NOT a version of the 265 Mopar from '54 (or any other year).

 

49Super6, sounds like YOU have a great set-up (considering all the praise that's been heaped on the 262 and 308 here. Just need to get the ****** to hold up to it, eh???

Been a FUN thread, and i sure have learned more than I EVER knew about Hudsons (& I HAD a '50 Super 6) !!!

Gotta agree, KEEP 'er goin' !!!

 

Both setups sound extremely sweet. Really nice engine combo for long lived, hard Hudson driving. I've chalked up two of those 3 speed transmissions too - so I feel your pain there. The destroked 308 sounds interesting. I'm also amazed this post has gone so long, with more excellent stuff showing up - like your and your buddy's car.

I appreciate Panic's insight on the engine particulars. I dragged out my notes on the stroker. I had specified 5500 rpm-4583 fpm on the pistons, Venolia said "no problem". They're still sitting in the shop, as pretty as the day they arrived.

Some other notes on the pistons:

The block I chose to use was a sloppy .060" overbore. I've become a believer in Total Seal gapless rings since I've used them on W,G,VL,UL harleys and antique pulling tractor engines. Believe me, its cheaper to use something "off the shelf" than to have them custom made. Snooping around the catalog I found this set.

Part# T1005+.005 which is for a 283/307 chevy +.005". This happens to equate to a .0675" overbore Hudson 308. A stock 283/307 bore would be a .0625" overbore - notwithstanding the compression height differences. That told me that I could find piston blanks really easy and more affordably from piston makers.

Since I now knew what kind of piston blank I needed, we proceeded to look at "off the shelf" wrist pins. Hudsons pins are .968" diameter and 2.937" long. Ross had a winner #975-01-29 which was .0975" and 2.930" long. Ironic,the same pins for the 283/307 pistons. This allowed me to hone fit the new pins to the existing wrist pin bushings, which were worn to .970-.971".

I put the piston specs out to bid with Ross and Venoila, Venolia won. What the homework did was trim the price down by referring the custom set back to the common 283/307 chevy. Common piston blank, common pin size, the only special operation was to locate the pin height and leave the top flat. The result was a custom set of stroker pistons, easy pin fitting for the company, using a known set of rings. Price $525 + $175 for the rings. They would have been even cheaper had I not used the .005" dimension, but had to because of my cylinders' previous treatment. Not bad for a custom set of pistons in an engine that hadn't been manufactured in 50+ years.

I need to get that thing together, badly.

Hud

 

Hud, I'm hearing more and MORE about gapless rings . . . AND becoming a believer. Does anybody make them in chrome-alloy? I know chrome would usally take longer to seat than cast rings; BUT, since I plan to run the 330 DeS I want to build no more than 5,000-5,500, SEEMS to me the engine should last as long as I live. (Sorry to throw DeS in there, but the technology for piston engines is similar, and that's my dream project right now. ONE darn thing at a time! JUST one, 'cause I'm gettig too old toover-extend myself! LOL).

 

Hudson Super Six Engines
The King of Flatheads....
was not built by Ford (QUOTE BY HUD)

Hud, I LOVE this statement. I don't remember Ford flattys running in NASCAR in '51-'54, even though the were the sbc that pre-dated sbcs, if you see my point.

Heck, no technology remains DOMINANT forever, BUT Hudson surely had its day!<!-- / sig -->

 

Hey, guys, 49Super6 seemed amazed that there's a 10-page post on HUDSONs. Hudson just seems to attract a LOT of ATTENTION, if you ask me.

SO, somebody please tell me what five blue stars means on the main H.A.M.B. board???

 

I'm a fourth gen Hudson owner so they are common place to me, this thread just won't die(thats a good thing). Just got to my parents and Im looking at a 54 Hornet, 52 Hornet, two 53 Hornets and a 50 Commodore....life is good.

 

SWEET, 49Super6! I posted this original question regarding the apex 308 Hudson . . .

HOWEVER, some neophytes might think Hudson never amounted to anything but a mom-pop car before the early '50s. I guess, a BUNCH of experienced, informed HUDSON dudes have presnted evidence to the CONTRARY!

From the first, Hudson was a VERY well led, very well-engineered, darn well-funded company, beginning 1909 (It's in my book I wrote but can't publish).

During the time from inception into the 1920s, Hudson WAS, often, one of the TOP-seeling U.S. cars! The Depression was hard on all American car makers, particularly on the independents and luxury makers.

 

Lucky Dawg.

4 generations huh? That's how you came by that camshaft - original Super 7x, that's the bona fide NASCAR cam.

How about some pictorial evidence. I'd like to see the family stable!

 

Oh, YEAH! 49Super6!!! Dig out some PIX, bro!

You've probably had some experience with Hudsons BEFORE the step-down design change, too?

 

Hey guys, the INPUT on this thread has been mainly tech and a bit of HISTORY. HOW ABOUT S'MORE STORES OF PEOPLE'S EXPERIENCES WITH HUDSONS -- NOT JUST THE LATER ONES??? I'll start:

When I bought my '50 Super 6 in 1970, my dad was none too happy with me. He thought my '55 Fireflite should be enough for a boy who was supposed to be SAVING for school! BUT, after he finally simmered down, he told me about some 'ol boys down home in WVa who used to take TWO of those HIGH-peaked Hudson hoods and weld & braze them together in the middle to make a ONE-MAN BOAT!

Looking back, I'm guessing he was talking about the immediate pre-WWII and post-war Hudsons. The hoods WERE LONG, and with that peak, the "boat" would have looked a bit like a canoe, eh?

Any of you Hudson guys ever hear of this? I'd be interest to know if this was just a LOCAL idea by some enterprising fisherman with no dough for a real boat -- or what? Or did guys do this other places, too?

(Maybe somebody could PhotoShop together two Hudson hoods to demonstarte HOW IT MIGHT HAVE LOOKED???

 

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Dont have any pics here at work so it might be awhile for pics. Over at my dad's house there are a 50 Commodore sedan with 52,**x original miles, 52 Hornet coupe, 53 Hornet ragtop, 53 Hornet sedan and a 54 Hornet sedan. All have original interior and all but the 50 have fresh 308's in them. The last 311040 cam my dad bought at a Hudson meet in the bay area that the guy had laying in his backyard, $25 and had it polished and trued at a local machine shop...ready to run for less than $100. Some guys that have been in the club for years hord this **** and 30 years later have NO clue to what they have or what certain part #'s are. At least 10 club members had it in there hand and each one put it down. The part # is stamped on the damn thing, but then again old Hudson members know everything. The cam in my 49 was reground by Bill Jenks at Mooneyes two years ago for $150 I think. My dad had headers made after receiving two sets of **** from Clifford. Had 20 sets made and all sold out. And my personal expierences with the prewar cars is very limited, 39 Country Club 8. I have a ton of stories that I've heard over the years, my greataunt Rosalie with all her girlfriends in my great grandpa's 36 Terraplane sedan racing the neighbor kid in his 36 Ford five window, wooped his ***. Oh yeah last night I was holding an NOS Edmunds head, life is good sometimes.



and now it's 11 pages

 

I think - see why some put it down

 

LB+1 wrote: I think - see why some put it down.

Not clear on what you mean, bro. Anybody who had the chance to own onw & & drive it wuld fall in love. Hudsons were whatever and however you wanted to order them -- smooth & reliable, OR smoth, reliable & POWERFUL.

 

reground by Bill Jenks at Mooneyes two years ago for $150 I think.

I rest my case - again

 

The cam in my car is a totally different cam then the one my dad bought 6 months ago, and I said I think because my girlfriend at the time paid for it. I rest my case

 

LB+1, I live in Ohio not 71292. Are you saying Bill Jinks at Mooneys is bad er good? You are talking shorthand and I only took typing! LOL

Throw me a bone. WHY did osme put IT down?

 

I am trying to tell you when you get a little older. like some of those 10 members
most likely were. You know it is a cam and that is where it stops. I am glad you cought the numbers
Here you are a youngster but as you stated I Think meaning you were not sure.

71292 What can I say = Fun

 

I understand but I know members of the Hudson club who dont know the difference between a 48 or a 49 Hudson if they were sitting in front of them. The cam that my dad bought was an original 311040 and the one in my car is a regrind to those specs. The engine in my car was put together over two years ago and Im at work with no paper work in front of me so prices tend to get mixed up. I know I had it back from Mooneyes in a week though.

 

If there is a contest for the external difference between a '48 and '49 Hudson, I want in on it because I can name it. And I am NOT a Hudson club member.

 

LB+1: I asn't trying to be na EXPERT oN Hudsons, just somebody who LOVED & still enjoys Hudsons. If you like rubbing in some part numbers, I'd say do it, AND laugh your *** off!

Frankly, I like the guys who have been feeding in a TON of Hudson info to this stream. I havenot been a smart*** on this thread (as anybody can SEE). But -- maybe -- you are just in a Friday-nite state of mind.