Victor doesn't make the J27 anymore (mores the pity). I looked for one for months before I bought a Midget. The J27 would have been a much better all around torch, 'cause I have found the Midget useful basically only for welding very thin material. It will barely handle 18 gage, and 16 gage just laughs at it outright, even with the largest tip they make on it. It figures that Victor would discontinue one of their best torches, while they continue to produce some of those hard core unruly bent neck cutting rigs. I guess they must have a specific purpose for which they are useful, but I have never found it. Things remind me of a giraffe with a broken neck, but I digress. I also agree with Pimpin about the regs. I was able to weld with the big honkin' regs I use with my big honkin' Victor cutting rig, but they are a ***** to set right, and the pressures are so low, the gauges literally don't read them. Hell, they never came off the pegs. I went with a set of small dual stage regs, and have been much happier since. They read the pressures down to less than one pound, and they don't creep around when you're adjusting on them, like the big ones do. I would also suggest going with the tiny super flexible hose for the last joint before your small torch. I found that if I hooked the big double hose directly up to the torch, the big stiff hose tended to steer the torch more than I did. I was always fighting the curl in the hose until I bought a ten foot section of this tiny black hose. Now I put the big hose on the supply side of the gas saver, and the super flex hose on the output side. When I want to go back to the cutting rig, I just break the fittings loose on the back of the gas saver, and hook up the big torch. Made welding with the little torch a lot less work, that's for sure. BTW, if anyone lays hands a J27 that they want rid of, do PM me, I'm still looking. As a reasonable approximation of a J27, I would recommend a Victor J40. It is a slightly larger torch than the Meco Midget, and is still fully supported by Victor. I see that Kent White has switched over to a J40 from his ancient and much loved J27, so it must be pretty damned close. He continuously lamented the lack of support for his favorite torch, going so far as to fabricate replacement tips and offering them for sale to keep the J27 running. If he's sold on the J40, there's a pretty good chance it's a dandy torch as well. At some point I am going to give up looking for a J27 and just settle for a J40 too. I went with a Meco because they're like $50, while a J40 is like $250. I cheaped out, and I have to break out an ancient Starline torch to weld anything over 20 gage as a result. If you wish to gas weld thick-ish sheet, learn from my mistake buy a larger torch than the Midget.
i have a henrob, a smith, tig and mig. what i have learned is use your mig when you can't get to the back of the weld with your dolly so you can planish. a mig will give you a smaller haz thus distort your panel less. use your o/a setup or tig when you can get to the back side of the weld. the weld is softer so it can be planished easier but because these processes take longer to weld you end up putting more heat in the panel. you will get good results with a traditional o/a torch using a small tip. i do not see any advantage using my henrob to date. if you have the scratch get the small torch set up. but if you want to get a set up that can do more things a traditional o/a set up is the way to go. the size of your torch will affect how tired you get using it. that will not be much of a issue because you go slow so you don't get the pannel to hot. heat = shrinkage. i tack in the center of the pannel then planish. tack on 1" on either side of the tack then planish. and so on. keep control of the warpage as you tack. if the panel warps and you tack it, the tack will lock the warp in your panel. every time you lock in a warped panel with a tack you will create more work to get the panel back to the desired shape. i learned to place my new panel in its position and scribe it on the old panel. i use no gap with o/s, or tig processes. use a gap with your mig about the thickness of the metal your are working with. hope this helps . tom
amen. although...I learned to wear gloves when welding because of my now mangled fingerprints that bear little resemblance to what they were when I was 17 years old...still, I agree wholeheartedly! That little right angle will prevent your gloves from being worn out prematurely
It will barely handle 18 gage, and 16 gage just laughs at it outright, even with the largest tip they make on it. Really????!!!!!!!!!
Unless you've got some voodoo in you that I don't, it won't. Even hanging out in mid-air and using the biggest tip I could find for it, the Midget won't make a good bead in 16 gage. You can get a pretty puddle on top, but on the back the penetration is very spotty. If you're using 16 gage, you obviously need the part to be strong, and partial penetration is an***hetical to that end. The #1 tip on my Starline (which my cross chart says is ~ to a Victor 0 tip) will fuse 16 gage beautifully and work as fast as I want. With 18 gage the Meco welds good, but it's slow. I don't like waiting on the torch, but maybe that's just me being a picky *******. It's not a bad torch at all, certainly worth the asking price, it's just only good for what it's good for. If you know that going in, and don't ask it to do things it's not made to do, you'll get along marvelously. It welds wonderfully on the lighter stuff. 24 gage is a breeze with the Meco, while it's an untenable mess with the Starline, 'cause I've only got the one tip (which nobody makes anymore), and that #1 is just too damned hot. I'm sure someone somewhere could make the Starline work on 24 gage, but that tip makes you move too fast for me to keep up. I don't like to wait, but at the same time, I can only move so fast.
Despite the lovely turd ****ogy, no gap is required, or even a good idea when welding sheet metal. Gaps are are used for thicker material to ensure proper penetration. You also do not have to weld short beads when gas welding. If the pieces are tacked together at regular intervals, you can weld several inches at a time (even 8"-12"), set down your torch and pick up the hammer and dolly to stretch the weld, and start welding again. If you have a proper fit and shape to the panels, you can get it back by stretching, smoothing, and shrinking. You have to trust that the panel has not magically distorted into something unworkable, and simply do what is necessary to get the contours back. Gas welding can be faster, and is certainly better than a mig if you do it this way. I have an old Henrob, but I end up using Victor Jr. with a 000 tip most of the time because it weighs less. John www.ghiaspecialties.com
OK, I've gotta ask. How do you weld a 10" long bead, with no gap, and not have it pucker and overlap for the last half of the joint? Say I tack every 4"-6", that thing will be all out of shape and overlapped by the time I make it to the second tack. If the panel has any shape in it to speak of, the free ends (IE the sides of your joint) have the most degrees of freedom, so they do most of the moving. The only way I know of to stop the overlapping and puckering would be to restrain the free ends too. I would be inclined to put a good hot (and strong) tack every half or three quarters of an inch or so. Is that how you do it? That will hold things in line, but instead of overlapping, your panel just warps all out of shape, which you obviously know how to fix. The problem for a lot of people is, the results of working the long welds are directly related to your skill at finding the shrink and stretching it the proper amount. Now, you can obviously do it very well, and with little trouble, but for folks with a little less skill, it is easier to keep a panel in shape if they keep the welds short. That way, when they get a bad shrink around the weld, they know where the problem is (IE, the last weld they just made). It's easier for amateur folks to keep everything in shape this way. If you've got the chops to do it, those long welds make the work go faster, but it's like walking off a cliff if you're not as good as you think you are. I would not suggest jumping into gas welding by attempting to fuse a 10" long joint in one shot. Disappointment and discouragement is sure to follow.
I settled for a J28. The body I think is a little bigger then the J27, but still way smaller then the standard. Here is a picture, it has a 0 tip in it. And here is a picture of the 00 and 000 tips. I use it alot. This is a great thread!!! Jeff
I had read that the J28 was bigger, but I had never seen them side by side, so I didn't know if it was several inches of difference, or just a fraction of an inch of difference. I'll have to check on the price of the J28 body. Sorta gotten used to the stubby body on the Meco torch, so my first impulse was to look to the J40 to sate my urge for a slightly larger torch. However, if the 28 is a lot cheaper, I may go that route instead. Honestly, I don't know for sure why I'm still looking for torches. lol The Meco welds body work very well, and anything else can easily be done with my TIG. I think I may have some sort of disorder.
If you find a cure let me know. Here is a link TM Tech. They have a picture with most of the torches we have been talking about, except the Henrob-Dillan. https://www.tinmantech.com/html/torches.php <TABLE style="BACKGROUND-IMAGE: url(../***ets/images/Fade.gif); BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat-x" height="100%" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD height=78></TD><TD vAlign=top><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=400 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><TABLE height=22 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" bgColor=#026c60 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD><TD align=middle>Kent's Torch Collection </TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> Torches Used and Owned by The Tinman "I have used many many torches since 1970. These are the remnants of what I still have." "I started with both the TIG and the torch, and even after 10 years, I still thought the TIG was oh so wonderful. But, by 1982 I was seriously involved with very high-end Vintage Racing restorations doing 3 250TR's, 250 LM, 250 GTB, 275 GTB, 250 SWB, 166MM, 2 335S, a Cobra Daytona Coupe, and RSK F2, RS60, and etc. etc. etc. However, even after buying a new Miller DialArc in '82, I realized that the torch had become my main tool, since I could anneal, hot work, solder and silver braze as usual, but that my welding on tubing and sheet (less than .090" thick) was just as authentic and nice as the original Factory work. Had I known this years earlier, I would have spent far less time fighting with the TIG on thin sheet and in corners, and would have had much better success with my restoration work." (See the gallery for a brief idea of what my work has been since 1970.) "Do your best with what you have. Plan ahead. Seek out the subtle Divine energy as being a larger part of "what is"." Kent <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=362 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Left to Right: Old Purox, Victor 100, Victor J27, Victor J40, Smith's 'Little Torch', Airco, Meco N Midget, 'Skeletized' and lightened Dillon Mark IV (Henrob 2000). Top: Ancient Torch- Oxweld type WL Oxy-Acetylene Blowpipe. Probably made in the early 1930's. </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I've seen that pic on Kent's site many times. Been a follower of his work for some time now. That pic doesn't show the J27 next to a J28. I had been afraid that the J28 was a top valve version of the 100, or an only slightly smaller version of the same. The 100 is a fine torch, but it's a little big for my taste. I borrowed one to compare it with my Starline, and while it was smaller in diameter (which would have been nice), it was several inches longer, so it was pretty much a wash as to ease of handling. I'd have borrowed a J28 to try out too, but I couldn't find anyone local who had one. It's a tough deal, everyone around here looks at me like I've got lobsters crawling out of my ears when I tell them I prefer to gas weld sheetmetal instead of using the TIG, so I kinda have to ask to borrow the torch before I tell them why. Otherwise they think I'm a squirrel that's gonna ****** up their tools. lol The guy that loaned me the Victor 100 laughed in my face when I told him I wanted to try it out on 16 gage sheet. "Good luck with THAT." is how he said it, I believe. The old body men are all gone around here. Only people who are left have never seen sheetmetal work done with anything other than lightening powered welders.
A bit off the path this thread has taken, but is there any value to using silver solder to patch small holes and cracks? I would think the lower heat required would cause less distortion in adjacent panels. I realize it's not as strong as br***, so nothing structural or under stress. Just curious, as I have the equipment for it already. Thanks.
I wouldn't worry about the strength of it. I know a lot of gunsmiths that prefer to silver solder in dutchmen to repair firearms, and some of those parts see some hellatious loads. Slides and frames on 1911 pistols jump immediately to mind. I would use the TIG torch for the same repair, but the silver solder works well, and has a long tradition behind it. You shouldn't have to worry about strength. That said, I don't know what kind of compatibility issues you'd have with body solder or other fillers and/or paints and primers. I have no idea about what is compatible with what, that's above my pay grade. I'll vouch for the strength of the repair. Whether any subsequent layers will stick is another worry.
OK I'm completely confused. I am willing to spend the money to get what I want. Have a Sears [Harris] set that would need a quarter taped to it to be able to say I threw something away. If you were starting out new, would you go with the Henrob for all around metal work ? I would prefer 1 set and try to get reasonably good with it.
Not hard to get confused with all the info thrown out here. Having used all of the above, I'd just ask what are you using it for? Mostly gas welding? Steel? Aluminum? Cutting? Soldering? I don't think I'd get the Henrob/Dillon, unless you've got lots of extra cash....or if you plan on doing a lot of cutting of plate, or lots of welding of aluminum. That's were the Henrob shines, IMHO. Good choice if you don't plan on buying lots of equip., like a plasma cutter, TIG, etc. Kinda one-tool-does-all. The other torches will all weld sheet metal, cut fairly nicely, and solder. A rosebud tip is needed for heavy heating of parts. The Meco, or other tiny torch if you plan on doing mostly small gauge sheet metal, on most cars from the beginning to the 80's or 90's. I've never tried welding 16 ga. as that is usually only found on floors or reinforcements...where I usually MIG it for speed. That help?
Well I think this thread is officially hijacked, lol. I just snapped a pic of my Victor wh-260c, and what I believe is a smith (worn letters), and I have to say it's dang small. I wonder if they even make hoses to fit. But since the J27 seems to no longer be made, anyone know the modern size equivalent via Victor's model numbering?
So is what you guys are saying is that the MECO will not weld 1930's sheetmetal properly ie: penetration????????
How many 1930's cars have you seen with 16 gage body panels? Just for reference, 16 gage is 0.0598", or just under 1/16" thick. That is hella thick for body work. I've never seen it used for body metal. Hell, I've never seen it used for floor pans on anything but race cars, where the rules mandate it. I would be real surprised to see anything thicker than 18 gage on a factory automobile (and that would be in the firewall and/or floorpan), and the Meco welds that just fine. It's a little slow going at that thickness, but it still gets 100% penetration. Anything thinner than 18 gage will roll along with 100% penetration at any speed you care to weld at. I maybe shouldn't have highlighted the struggle with 16 gage, but I was trying to be thorough in my ***essment. I didn't want to gloss over any limitations and then have someone make a purchase based on that and end up disappointed, ya know?
Phew! Thanks, it was just the definition of 'struggles' with 16 gauge, I was thinking **** how is it going to go with 18?? Thanks for you answer. I will invest in a MECO and try and pick up some smaller torch handles at swaps and want not. Very informative thread guys, a little confusing at times but good
Having a gap is the way I was taught also, with 1/16" rod we used a penny for the gap. If the weld was done properly it should look almost identical on both sides of the panel. The trick was to fill the "keyhole". Meaning when the metal became molten, it started to melt away causing the image of a skeleton style keyhole, at the point when that opened up you'd dip your filler rod in to fill the hole, move a tad and repeat the same process, and if you did that it will look the same on both sides and you'll have near perfect penetration.
A good painter can produce a good paint job with a cheap spray gun and a good oxy welder can make nice welds with a cheap torch setup. It's the person making the weld and the experience that person has, in my opinion. If your running a bead into a window channel or gutter, there really is no better way than using a torch in my opinion. Little to no grinding or cleanup in an area that's usually difficult to get into. The Mig has it's place but if you can oxy weld, your gonna use it a lot. To practice, grab a bunch of raw, uncoated exhaust tubing and practice **** welding them together. They are usually thick and won't warp as you weld them and that's one less thing to deal with while you learn. I set my torch for 18G with an 0 tip and strike the acetylene and adjust til the soot disappears and the flame just "feathers" at the end, then I add oxy til the inner cone is sharp and then back it off til it's just dull. That should give you a neutral flame. Lay the tip of the inner cone on the seam at a 45 degree angle and start to heat the two panels evenly and as soon as they start to melt, add your filler rod. Don't add the filler until the parent metal starts to melt or you'll likely get a pop and you'll be wearing some steel. Ouch. Lots of fun when you get the hang of it. Good luck with it.
I can't see silver solder working that great.You need to get your panel and patch red hot for even low temp silver solder so your panel would warp bad.Also having two layers would be hard to dolly out,not to mention the cost of siver solder!
<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5; COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1>Well said. <!-- / icon and ***le --><!-- message --> If not for my aging eyesight, hard to see the puddle well, even with gl***es, OA would be my choice. I get along with wire-feed because it's forgiving but would advise anybody that wants to learn more and do a top-notch job to become proficient with the gas torch. Goes without saying that with OA, lead filling of gaps is just another step in the process.
Its good to hear people still gas weld. Like somebody said they did, I learned with coat hangers, somstimes using a burning torch. What a difference when I got some real welding rods. I didn't see anybody say about using a circler movement with the tip, or however you would discribe the movement of the torch.
My eyes are ****ping out for close work too. I have to wear my gl***es under my torch mask and when I flip my mask up to get a better look, my gl***es go flying! It's great getting older!
I would describe my motion as a sweep behind the filler rod, pushing molten metal up with the cone on either side of the rod as it melts. If that makes any sense.
This has got to be one of the best threads in a very long time! Lot's of excellent info to be absorbed. THANKS all for spending the time to explain so much!
RE: the difficult to read gauges. I replaced the line gauges on my oxy-acet setup with gauges that max at 30#. Bottle gauges remained as is. Quality gauges don't cost all that much and the 30# gauges are easy to set at 4-5#. You do not want liquid filled gauges in your welding system. I prefer oxy-acet welding when building headers and for the few body repairs I do. Pretty much settled on 1/16" rod for headers or body work. I have **** welded 1/4" metal with the gas torch - ****tershield extension back in the day - and it welds fine if it's pre-heated. My gas torch is an about 45 year old Marquette. All aluminum, nice and light, not too large and you can get "0" tips for it and "00" may be available. Good thread, lots of vauable information posted.... The MIG is used on the frame etc.
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